You don’t have to relate to anything except that which makes sense to you. This is an atheist-themed blog, but away from these pages i’ve never found myself compelled to ever bring it up, unless asked.
Great point! Atheism is the default setting. Every child, without exception, is born atheist. Without that backdrop, that curtain upon which to project themselves, theists couldn’t exist.
Prayson, nice try, but don’t you get tired of chasing your tail, always offering up circular rebuttals? 🙂
A “conclusion,” by its nature, means the agreed upon results of an investigation to ascertain the verification of a theory; ie. I believe scripture to be a load of codswallop and the gods nothing but the creation of sane but otherwise very frightened individuals.
I could play your game and simply ask you to present what evidence you have for your god… which, of course, will be zero. It’s tempting, but as you will not be able to present anything tangible you’ll just dance around the request and recast the same circular question with different words. I’ll instead use your god against itself:
“Present your case,” says the Lord, “Tell us, you idols, what is going to happen. Declare to us the things to come, tell us what the future holds so we may know you are gods. Do something, whether good or bad, so that we will be dismayed and filled with fear. But you are less than nothing and your works are utterly worthless; whoever chooses you is detestable.” (Isaiah 41: 21-24)
Well John, it seem you are avoiding the question. Actually it is you who need to “present what evidence you have for” your claim that atheism is a conclusion, not a belief.
Do you want your readers, John, to simply “believe” what you said without rationally showing how you came to hold such a belief/notion/idea( call it whatever you wish) that atheism is a conclusion?
Turning the table, to avoid defending your case, wont work here John. You made a claim, you defend it.
So before I blindly hold your “belief”/idea/statement that atheism is a conclusion,not a belief, I wish to have good reasons to believe what you believe John. Or you don’t believe that atheism is a conclusion, not a belief? 😀
“Present your case,” says the Lord, “Tell us, you idols, what is going to happen. Declare to us the things to come, tell us what the future holds so we may know you are gods. Do something, whether good or bad, so that we will be dismayed and filled with fear. But you are less than nothing and your works are utterly worthless; whoever chooses you is detestable.” (Isaiah 41: 21-24)
Jack: Ataxation(a notion that we should not pay tax) is a conclusion, not a belief.
Peter: Do you believe that Jack
Jack: Good try Pett
Peter: Well, I want to know if Ataxation is true. I can’t simply believe it without reason.
Jack: Your tax papers say give reasons. So you give reasons why Taxation is true.
Peter: Jack you can’t simply assert things hoping others to show otherwise.
Prayson, come on now… back to the reservation. Your own god is quite clear about the proof necessary to judge it’s a god. Your god laid it out in some detail. It’s right there in Isaiah! You want me to post it again? Will that help?
Are you ignoring your own scripture? Or is that scripture wrong? Is it in error? If it’s not in error then you should be able to provide the evidences your god DEMANDED other gods produce to prove they’re gods.
We are not talking about “my God” John but your claim that atheism is a conclusion, not a belief.
Changing the subject to “my God” is simply redherring because I did not claim anything about “my God”. You made a claim, it is your job to defend it, John? 🙂
Prayson, your pirouettes won’t work. Your god laid out the criteria to prove it exists. If you believe in your god then you should be able to easily present the case following your gods own directive. Do you want me to re-post Isaiah so you can go over the criteria again? It’s pretty specific….
I’m not pointing to Isaiah, I’m indicating what your own god fellow apparently said needed to be done to prove its a god. That’s what scripture is, isn’t it? The word of your god. So, your god has laid out the criteria, and as you have NOT been able to satisfy a single point on that list to me it invariably leads me to the CONCLUSION that it’s all bullshit.
Cool. Let’s say you are correct about Christian God. Let assume I am a fellow atheist who is trying to find the truth and the truth only. How is atheism a conclusion, not a belief?
As always. Thank you John. Though I don’t think I have enough faith to believe that “atheism is a conclusion, not a belief” without you offering any reason why you think that it is true that “atheism is a conclusion, not a belief”.
Thanks for everything though. Off to see Manchester Utd game. Cheers friends.
Pulling a couple verses out of a Chapter in the Bible is disingenuous John, and it really doesn’t show your intelligence. The meaning of the versus you quote, taken out-of-context does not mean what you infer it to mean.
Verses 1-7 God summons the Nations and their idols to court.
Verses 8-16 the first servant is introduced. (Israel)
Verses 17-20 shows what God did for His first servant.
Verses 21-24 God challenges the pagan gods to show that they are really gods. Let them predict future events, or explain the significance of past events; let them actually do anything at all, either good or evil. Their utter inability to meet such a challenge entitles them to the vehement denunciation that God here made of pagan gods. They are nothing, of no account, helpless, and incapable of doing anything whatsoever, either of good or of evil!
*****
“Belief” verses “conclusion” seems to me is just a matter of semantics. The two words are interchangeable in this context. (You believe your conclusion is true, based solely on your belief you have no conclusive proof) ( I believe my conclusion is also true, based solely on my belief I have conclusive proof.)
*****
Consider this analogy…God lives at 2323 Main St., Hutchings, Florida.
You/I go to this address, me one day and you the next. We both see the blinds closed and no sign of life inside.
Me – I want to know, so I knock. I meet Him and find it is true, my life is changed forever.
You – You do not knock. You then assume, not only is God not there, He also does not exist.
Everyone is given the choice to knock, find, believe, surrender, submit, and receive what it is to know His love, or not. I also understand if He wants you then you can’t run fast enough to get away.
Hi Roy… so, let me get this straight: its wrong if i use scripture, but ok when you do? That’s odd. And anyway, it’s not at all taken out of context. this god challenges other gods to prove themselves, it lays out the criteria by which they can do so. My point was quite simple: if your god has a checklist which it thinks would prove a gods status then your god should be able to match that. Wouldn’t you agree? What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. Your god asks for proof, so let’s see your god prove itself. Of course, that will never happen, and we all know why, right?
Come on man, do you not think I understand you? You add insulting words to scripture that were never there and imply meaning that is untrue. It’s a diversion tactic and fails to sway the educated. I’m not going to call you a liar because I know you know exactly what you are doing. Your not lying, your mocking.
In the verses you site God is not referring to Himself. He has already proved Himself to the chosen. It’s the pagan idols that must prove their worth.
The 41st Chapter of Isiah is powerful. God’s care of his people. (1-9) they are encouraged not to fear. (10-20) The vanity and folly of idolatry. (21-29)
Can any heathen god raise up one in righteousness, make what use of him he pleases, and make him victorious over the nations? The Lord did so with Abraham, or rather, he would do so with Cyrus. Sinners encourage one another in the ways of sin; shall not the servants of the living God stir up one another in his service? God’s people are the seed of Abraham his friend. This is certainly the highest title ever given to a mortal. It means that Abraham, by Divine grace, was made like to God, and that he was admitted to communion with Him. Happy are the servants of the Lord, whom he has called to be his friends, and to walk with him in faith and holy obedience. Let not such as have thus been favoured yield to fear; for the contest may be sharp, but the victory shall be sure.
No cigar, Roy…. Not good when own scripture doubles back on you. Your god has proved itself to no one, and if it wants to then we have the criteria it identified.
so, i guess we’ll all be waiting for you god to actually put its money where its mouth is, eh?
@Vidachristo
You quote Isaiah and are too dense to even know the most famous verse isn’t even about your supposed man god.
The average half literate atheist understands more about the bible than any half baked reborn.
Go study.
What a wally
Ark, you can not offer an educated rebuttal to my commentary on the 41st Chapter of Isaiah so you revert to childish name calling and insults. I have a picture of you in my head and you are stomping your feet and yelling like a baby.
The Bible is like most books, it contains Chapters, which are also a segment of the whole. When anyone sits down to read a book do they just read the last three sentences in a Chapter? No, that would be silly. First, you will miss out on a lot, and second, those last three sentences will have little, if any, meaning to you.
I laid out the true meaning in the 41st Chapter…To Israel the Lord says, Ye are my servants; I will preserve you—Idols are nothing—One will bring good tidings to Jerusalem.
Verses 1-7 God summons the Nations and their idols to court.
Verses 8-16 the first servant is introduced. (Israel)
Verses 17-20 shows what God did for His first servant.
Verses 21-24 God challenges the pagan gods to show that they are really gods. Let them predict future events, or explain the significance of past events; let them actually do anything at all, either good or evil. Their utter inability to meet such a challenge entitles them to the vehement denunciation that God here made of pagan gods. They are nothing, of no account, helpless, and incapable of doing anything whatsoever, either of good or of evil!
*****
CLUBSCHADENFREUDE and vidasdecristo, Your entire paragraph, no edits, and what I would write….
c.I have come to the conclusion that apples are red.
v.I have come to the conclusion that God is real.
c. I do not simply believe that they are with no evidence.
v. I simply believe that He is and I have evidence.
c.I have apples, I have spectrometers that can show me the frequency of light reflecting from the apple, etc.
v. I have God. The Lord is my strength and my shield; my heart trusts in him, and I know a joy that is so comforting it is hard to describe, I am helped. I have purpose and a place reserved.
c. You believe in your god but you haven’t anythign similar to show that your god exists.
v. I believe in my God because he removed a deadly addiction that I was powerless against and that was sure to kill me. He presented a warning to me in a dream and because of that I avoided a terrible car accident. He saved my life at least 4 times, that I know of. My personal relationship with God is my greatest treasure.
c. And hilariously, you again know you’ve failed and showing your god is anything but a myth and now run away. Cue the coconuts!
v. I love you, insults and all.
****
Since God is not going to “show” Himself to every single person on this planet, nor will any logical argument I submit sway you, all I can give as proof and evidence is not why I believe, it’s why you do not.
Consider this analogy…God lives at 2323 Main St., Hutchings, Florida.
You/I go to this address, me one day and you the next. We both see the blinds closed and no sign of life inside.
Me – I want to know, so I knock. I meet Him and find it is true, my life is changed forever.
You – You do not knock. You then assume, not only is God not there, He also does not exist.
Everyone is given the choice to knock, find, believe, surrender, submit, and receive what it is to know His love, or not. I also understand if He wants you then you can’t run fast enough to get away.
The evidence lives inside me and manifests itself in the joy it brings to my life. I’m sorry if that is not enough to convince you, but I can’t summon God like I do the Domino’s pizza delivery guy.
Out of interest Roy, why, in your mind, won’t your god follow its own rules of engagement and prove itself just as it demanded of the other gods? And please give a direct answer, not an essay where you ignore answering the question.
Is it not capable?
“Present your case,” says the Lord, “Tell us, you idols, what is going to happen. Declare to us the things to come, tell us what the future holds so we may know you are gods. Do something, whether good or bad, so that we will be dismayed and filled with fear. But you are less than nothing and your works are utterly worthless; whoever chooses you is detestable.” (Isaiah 41: 21-24)
Roy is a little susceptible to the fantasy of his particular religion. He can say whatever he likes here, i won’t ban him or any theist, its an open forum unlike most theist blogs…. he’s actually only proving how retarded evangelical religious belief really is. I only hope in his real world he keeps that crazy shit away from children.
Changed your Gravatar name Christo? I cruised your website again and I don’t see the connection to your comments about me.
I see none of this at your web site. It has a personal touch of class and artistry. No hateful posts or hateful comments such as these. Very strange. Are you just playing to the band. I suggest you stand like a man, you’ll feel better about yourself. Those that hold strong to their beliefs yet also admit they do not know everything there is to know are the most mentally stable. We have to maintain a little wiggle room because a closed mind is a dead mind. Respect for those who have a different opinion will serve you well because they are everywhere.
Although I believe in God, the underlying theme of the Bible, and the soul, I also see evidence “the gods” of ancient civilizations probably were aliens. Every ancient civilization believes in the gods. There are UFO type aircraft in many old paintings, Egyptian hieroglyphs that resemble flying craft, Bible narratives that resemble flying craft, even the Israelites’ are said to follow a pillar of smoke and fire while wandering in exile, and on and on.
If John didn’t want a different perspective he could block me, or even make his site “members only” so only fellow Atheists can comment. But, is it all you want to to do is pat each other on the back, never hearing a different perspective and why one would hold such?
So here I am, trying my best to use the education I have to try to convey the other side of your belief, conclusion, or whatever word you want to use to define it. In dealing with my own problems then helping others, I’ve learned we have a tendency to ridicule what frightens us. It’s one of our best coping skills or we’d be in a state of perpetual panic. I know the insults are not personal, it’s the beliefs we espouse.
*******
John,
You ask for the One who created everything to answer his own challenge to the idols. I answered already John. You don’t believe the Biblical narrative, and I have no telephone number to God so we can set an appointment to get you the proof you require. Nothing I can do, say, or testify to, will prove to you what I feel in my heart is true. It’s a personal relationship, one and God.
The only thing I can do is, when you quote Scripture to prove your point, is to show you how you are wrong. God hates shrimp my love….wrong.
So, Roy, you have nothing but a feeling. Your god cannot meet its OWN challenge, a criteria clearly laid out in its own book which you believe to be 100% accurate. As you can see, this is just another piece of evidence leading to the logical and rational adult “conclusion” that all gods are the fanciful invention of desperately frightened individuals looking for 1. some solace and comfort in their lives, and/or 2. a little supernatural spice, even if they know deep down that it’s just make-believe.
Now, you can believe in an invisible, talking house brick for all I care. Just keep that belief off our streets, out of our schools, out of our governments, our science, and out of our military. If you can follow this rather simple secular directive then we atheists will have no need to challenge you and point out that your invisible, talking house brick doesn’t exist.
AHHHH, now we get to the rub. Took us awhile John, but I had a feeling there just had to be more to it. I’ve been wondering why all the hostility, now I know.
You want my belief off our streets, out of our schools, out of our governments, our science, and out of our military.
You are the trespasser John. Believers came to this country to be free to worship GodIt’s a God-centered Nation, so you can find your own place if you don’t like it. Ever read our Declaration of Independence?
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”
The screaming between your ears will keep getting louder and louder. Look it up, “death bed Atheists confessions”.
Congress has always held daily prayers, and the First Congress mandated distribution of Bibles in the territories. So the correct description of our national government isn’t that it was secular, but that it didn’t establish one Christian denomination over others.
Consider Federalist No. 2, an essay by John Jay in 1787. “that Providence has been pleased to give this one connected country to one united people—a people descended from the same ancestors, speaking the same language, professing the same religion, attached to the same principles of government, …”
The First Amendment, as originally understood, merely stipulated that there be no established national church—no denomination favored by the federal government nor supported by federal monies. And the Constitution’s Article VI assures that there’s no religious test to hold national office.
Your belief is protected, just as mine is. And you have no standing to demand I do anything in regards to whatever religions belief I happen to practice. NONE. It’s not your Country John, it’s ours.
“As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.”
-Treaty of Tripoli (submitted to the Senate by President John Adams, ratified unanimously by the U.S. Senate on June 7, 1797 and signed by Adams, taking effect as the law of the land on June 10, 1797.)
America is not a theocracy and everything the Founding Fathers created was to ensure this, after all it was mostly theocratic governments the influx of immigrants were fleeing from.
“I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology.”
-Thomas Jefferson
“We establish no religion in this country. We command no worship. We mandate no belief, nor will we ever. Church and State are and must remain separate.”
-Ronald Reagan.
again, dear Prayson, evidence that it is not. Show me evidence of your god. We’ve seen the usual circular argumetns; the arguments that can be used for any god, not just yours; the claims of physical evidence which never turns up, the bible which is full of contradictions, incorrect information, etc.
I have come to the conclusion that apples are red. I do not simply believe that they are with no evidence. I have apples, I have spectrometers that can show me the frequency of light reflecting from the apple, etc. You believe in your god but you haven’t anythign similar to show that your god exists. And hilariously, you again know you’ve failed and showing your god is anything but a myth and now run away. Cue the coconuts!
(And the Isaiah quote was the perfect response! Another to: “how did you came (sic) to believe your conclusion” — might be “observation and logic, as opposed to superstition and hearsay.”)
That “is” the answer: there is nothing to “observe.” If you can prove that otherwise go ahead, knock yourself out…. I’d be most interested in hearing what there is to “observe”
Not in its entirety. One may also look to the contradictory nonsense in scripture, the failure of all prophets, the absence of anything supernatural, the absence of evidence for spirit, and the failure of a single person out of 17,000,000,000 (who’ve lived and died over the last 6,600 generations) to get a message back to our biosphere confirming the existence of some ethereal netherworld… of which there is no evidence.
The question is do you believe that “atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities”? If so, how is that not a belief?
Moreover, if atheism is absence of belief that any deities, then mental ill person, animals, tree, chairs, rocks are all atheists 🙂
Moreover, let assume Pope Benedict suddenly got alzheimer, and forgot that he ever believed in God or say the belief part of the brain was remove, it is absurd because if atheism is absence of belief, then we would have an atheist Pope. 😀
@ Prayson
Atheism is patently the default position – meaning humans were unaware of deities until they decided to invent them. And children are definitely atheists until they are inculcated. So, obviously, there is no belief.
Any suggestion to the contrary is quite plainly delusional and indicative of the mental illness you mentioned. You aren’t mentally ill are you?
The Pope may not be an atheist but he is definitely a cross dresser.
As I have told you before that according to New Scientist: 4th February 2009, Michael Brooks contended that science after 1970s indicates that “our minds are finely tuned to believes in gods” while on March 21th 2012 Justin L. Barrett contended childrens “minds are naturally tuned up to believe in gods”.
And pointed you to contemporary researches contending for the that conclusion:
1. Scott Atran, atheist anthropologist, in his book “In Gods We Trust”(2002)
2. Pascal Boyer, atheist evolutionary psychologist and anthropologist, “Religion Explained”(2001)
3. Deborah Kelemen, psychologist based on research in cognitive development,”Are Children “Intuitive Theists”? in Psychological Science Journals May 2004 15: 295-301
4. Philippe Rochat, Tricia Striano, Rachel Morgan, “Who is doing what to whom? Young infants’ developing sense of social causality in animated displays”, Perception Journal 2004: Vol. 33: 355-369
5. Justin L. Barrett and Amanda Johnson, ” The Role of Control in Attributing Intentional Agency to Inanimate Objects”, Journal of Cognition and Culture 3.3 2003 208-217
Your belief that children are definitely atheists until they are inculcated is sadly scientifically proven wrong.
If I were mental ill, and the part of the brain that hold a belief that God exist is dead then I would be an atheist 🙂
Well. Thank you both of you for a wonderful chat as always. Cheers mates.
Children are born atheist. It is a no brainer.
It matters not how you wish to define atheism but a baby has no cognitive ability to recognize the term theism.
Barrett is a Christian ( Unfortunately, they tell lies, sometimes intentionally so this immediately disqualifies him) and his research was sponsored by the Templeton foundation…oops. The same organisation that is trying to establish that science and religion can work together like real pals. Barf )
I should say that Barrett’s research is about as non-Partisan as that dickhead William Lane Craig and his views on Christianity
How can anyone trust anything you might suggest if you are going to put forward someone like Barrett.
And now that I have discovered you are a Manchester United supporter I am even more convinced you are mentally unstable.
Developmental psychologists have provided evidence that children are naturally tuned to believe in gods of one sort or another.
1) Children tend to see natural objects as designed or purposeful in ways that go beyond what their parents teach, as Deborah Kelemen has demonstrated. Rivers exist so that we can go fishing on them, and birds are here to look pretty.
2) Children doubt that impersonal processes can create order or purpose. Studies with children show that they expect that someone not something is behind natural order. No wonder that Margaret Evans found that children younger than 10 favored creationist accounts of the origins of animals over evolutionary accounts even when their parents and teachers endorsed evolution. Authorities’ testimony didn’t carry enough weight to over-ride a natural tendency.
3) Children know humans are not behind the order so the idea of a creating god (or gods) makes sense to them. Children just need adults to specify which one.
4) Experimental evidence, including cross-cultural studies, suggests that three-year-olds attribute super, god-like qualities to lots of different beings. Super-power, super-knowledge and super-perception seem to be default assumptions. Children then have to learn that mother is fallible, and dad is not all powerful, and that people will die. So children may be particularly receptive to the idea of a super creator-god. It fits their predilections.
5) Recent research by Paul Bloom, Jesse Bering, and Emma Cohen suggests that children may also be predisposed to believe in a soul that persists beyond death.
Basically, Atheism is not an ignorance of God, but a definite “no-proof belief” against the existence of God. You could describe a baby as “agnostic”, without knowledge, but atheism, as an observable social phenomenon is more describable as “against god belief”, whether than “without God belief”. after all, how can a person be without something, and yet opposed to that to which they claim does not exist?
Therefore, none of us are born as Atheist, and I have never met an Atheist yet who did not decide to take that view after learning that others believe in God, and disagreeing with said belief, so it is a later “no-proof” belief, and a prejudiced reaction to that which they are ignorant of, instead if simple ignorance which the agnostic suggests. So it could be said that babies are agnostic, but I have not met a baby yet which would argue against belief in God, as Atheists often do.
“Developmental psychologists have provided evidence that children are naturally tuned to believe in gods of one sort or another.”
And the part of the sentence, ‘of one sort or another’, is crucial.
You slated John for being disingenuous and you do exactly the same. No, correction, worse, in fact as it is this type of ‘effed’ up statement that creates newspaper headlines erroneously suggesting, “Kids Believe in God” , which is a whole pile of steaming elephant turds.
Children have creative imaginations, something that is crucial for mental acuity and problem solving.
However,all this means is their minds are like sponges that are able absorb and assimilate millions of ideas.
Most of the nonsense they either reject or grow out of. Santa, Tooth Fairy, Talking bunny rabbits, Bogeymen, and such like.
God-belief is generally cultivated and inculcated from a young age.
Children are subject to shit like the meek and mild Jesus, Noah,Moses,and how god mad mankind.
By the time children have reached the age where they are able to question without fear of adult reprisal much of this diatribe has already been implanted.
Some are able to go on and reject it for the rubbish it is, while others spend much of their life under the yoke of religion.
Go ask ANY de-convertee what they experience once they begin their journey. It is often more mentally and physically traumatic than kicking drug addiction.
Statements such as yours are slanted, biased, and grossly irresponsible and only a real dick head would spread such diatribe.
Children born to Christian parents in the USA most likely will be taught and raised Christian and stay that way.
Children born to Muslim parents in Saudi Arabia most likely will be taught and raised Muslim and stay that way.
Children born to Hindu parents in India most likely will be taught and raised Hindu and stay that way.
Children are naturally tuned to believe in gods “of one sort or another”. Reality proves this, scientist and researchers have found evidence, not me..
Do kiss your mother with that mouth?
I suppose every “educated” point you make might be true, and if so, proves the marvel of being Human. No matter how we are raised, what we are taught, what trauma we may, or may not, go through, we have within us the ability to change, heal, and be productive. We have the marvel of seeking truth, studying, reasoning, comparing, and ultimately coming to a decision for ourselves. You do not have to settle for your “station” in life, nor what religion you might have been “taught”.
Children have a natural propensity for lots of things.
Gods, can be referred to as anything considered supernatural (read. Not Real. . Thus, to a child, a concept such as Santa Claus is as magical and wondrous as a the thought that a god made everything.
Education is a wondrous thing, is it not? Which is why people like Barrett and his god-tests seem all the more credible because of his education and super duper organisations like the Templeton Foundation.
William Lane Craig has tons of qualifications. And, guess what? He is still a dick head.
However, this does not equate to wisdom. As the character, Jesus was as uneducated as they come, a thick-as-two-short-planks carpenter from a made up town and yet millions upon millions defer to his ‘wisdom.’
Which only goes to show how many can be fooled. It should then come as no surprise that a chap like Barrett and his ilk would be fawned and feted by the theological community.
Obviously, you never got over your propensity for god belief which pretty much shows you never paid attention to this little ditty in that book you love so much.
“When I was a child I spoke as a child I understood as a child I thought as a child; but when I became a man I put away childish things.” I Cor. xiii. 11.
But be of good cheer. There is still time.
Now, look at the meme on John’s post and instead of kneeling by your bed with your hands together in supplication to Yahweh, repeat it 100 times.
Atheism is a conclusion, not a belief.
Go on…you know its the right thing to do.
Ah, again with the insults and hate. Do you know what that will do to your health?
Anger is a huge contributor to most diseases. anger devitalizes the entire body so it becomes susceptible to disease. The disturbance caused in your body causes you to become sick.
More specifically, hate causes an energy imbalance in the body. Anger stimulates the liver which causes a rush of energy to the head. All inflammation, cysts, tumors, cancer, etc. are due to too much energy around the cells/organs. anger, stress, worry, fear, and other negative emotions make your cells overactive which causes these conditions.
When cells vibrate, they are contracting and expanding. When cells contract, matter inside the cells transforms into energy that radiates out to the space between the cells and outside the cells. After contracting, cells will then expand. when cells expand, the energy between the cells will transform back into matter inside the cells. When you are healthy, the cellular respiration and the transformation between matter and energy at the cellular level is in relative balance. when you get angry, you upset that balance.
Negative emotion affects your Endocrinol systems…..negative emotions create stress in your body and stress is at the bottom of many physical ailments.
it’s ironic you quote 1 Corinthians 13, which speaks of Love.
I’m trying to wear a thick skin around here like John suggested, but I also need to be honest with you.
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You can not use Scripture against itself, it’s too perfect. Pulling one verses out of a Chapter and saying it means what it clearly does not will never help you win your argument.
1 Corinthians 13 is the heart of Paul’s teaching on spiritual gifts and their role in sanctification. You would be a wise man to heed the instructions given. Even an Atheist would benefit from this…
4. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.
11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.
12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
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So you see, once again you pull one little sentence out of 13 and try to infer a meaning that is false. In this chapter, the apostle shows that divine love is the greatest of all gifts. Divine love is supreme, and is the “more excellent way” to Christian perfection. The New Testament reveals that spiritual growth is a process–a sanctification process by which Christians develop from immature “babes” into “full grown” saints.
To understand the verse you quote you have to look at the sentence before, and the one after, to understand.
BEFORE – but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.
When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.
AFTER -For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
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Whatever it is you believe due to a conclusion you made is your own decision.
Hey, Roy, i could off course fill this reply with THOUSANDS of examples that simply destroy this absurd statement, but I’ll give you just one: “All flying insects that walk on all fours are to be detestable to you. (Leviticus 11:20).
So, Roy, could you now list all those flying insects who walk on four legs…. I’ll be waiting.
Sure, I can easily explain your out-of-context verse. Since I have done several already please do one for me first. explain what you think this verse may mean;
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.Matthew 7:6
Nice attempt at a deflection, but i ain’t biting. I really can’t blame you, though. Your god has failed to meet its own standard, which is somewhat embarrassing, isn’t it?
Not at all John. If it’s good for me it is also good for you too. I already told you I understand now. At first I just thought you were ignorant of Scripture. Then I thought you were a liar. Now I see your fear and fear mocks. It seeps through every word you write.
I think it’s fair to say that some (definitely not all) Christians come to the conclusion that their god exists. Is the difference not that they don’t have any *physical* evidence on which to base their conclusion? It’s still a conclusion nonetheless. The beauty of the Christian argument is that their god defines everything, and his creations (us humans) are too stupid to understand much, so there’s wriggle room no matter what logical line to the contrary is demonstrated.
Agreed. If a theist really wants to dig their heals in they’ll simply blot out all the things that contradict that belief. Said it before, but the majority of theists are just scared individuals, and for that they do deserve our sympathy. It’s the science-denying, end of the world longing evangelicals that get under my collar.
Nailed it! Actually, it’s even worse than that. Most Christians have never even read the bible. They’re Christians only because their parents were. They’d be Muslim or Mithraists if their parents were Muslim or Mithraists.
I like that! But the opposite is often true too – I came to my atheistic conclusion with the help of only one book – the Bible – and Christians trying to make sense of the cruel nonsense that’s in it often read endless piles of ‘study’ books, that give them acceptable interpretations.
So true – reading the Bible from start to finish was the beginning of the end for me. It reminds me of a quote from Frederick Douglass: “I have found that, to make a contented slave, it is necessary to make a thoughtless one. It is necessary to darken his moral and mental vision, and as far as possible, to annihilate the power of reason. He must be able to detect no inconsistencies in slavery; he must be made to feel that slavery is right; and he can be brought to that only when he ceases to be a man.”
Christopher Hitchens once stated: “what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.” Following Hitchens, “atheism is a conclusion, not a belief” is asserted without evidence, there I think, Hitchens would wish me to dismiss it without evidence 🙂
Doesn’t change the fact you have no evidence. I do. Can I see a god? No. Can I hear a god? No. Do i see the work of a god anywhere? No. Evidence, evidence, and evidence.
Ah yes, i saw this last week. Superstition at its very, very worst. A while ago i forced myself to watch a video. I didn’t want to, it offended every sensibility i have, but i did. It was the burning of witches in Kenya. There were 3 or 4 and they were put to flame by a crowd. It was truly horrific. There were no stakes, just an open fire and they were sort of pushed onto it. They crawled out and were pushed back in. It wasn’t even a large fire and it quickly spread out into a few small fires. This thing went on and on and on, these poor people just sitting in fire slowly cooking. No one put them out of their agony. The crowd just watched, and if one of them crawled free (as they did) a burning branch was tossed over their back. The video ended before they were even dead so i can only imagine how much longer it went on for. I watched to learn, to see what humans are capable of… and it was the most abhorrent thing i hope i ever have to witness.
I am an atheist, but I hold beliefs. I do believe the sun will rise again tomorrow. I do not know it will, but everything in my empirical experience seems to point to that, and even my scientific knowledge says it will.
What I do not sport is faith. To me faith seems like belief without evidence. All gods I know of, demand exactly that from people. Theists regardless of creed hold faith very important. It seems to be a requirement for some favours from these alledged gods. But there are also the theists who are not content with simple faith. They also require evidence. What they accept as evidence is appaling and a bit pathetic, but their thirst for evidence seems to go against the requirement of faith.
Why is faith required? Perhaps, because the evidence for gods to exist is rather more flimsy in comparrison to such things we otherwise believe because of evidence. Why am I not simply agnostic and skeptical about the suggested gods, is well, because there is so much concrete evidence against their existance. That is why my stance is not to hold a belief in gods. It is not a belief in not believing. I know, I do not believe. That is why my position is a conclusion not a belief.
However, it is interresting how often the theists would want to drag atheism to the level of just one belief, or even a religion among all the others. Why is this? How can people who think their faith is a validation for some particular truth, even think that the faith of a nother person would infact invalidate those views? As if atheism would be less valid, if it was just a nother religion, or belief. Should we think these theists think their religion is actually less valid as it is just a nother religion, or belief.
Excellent clarification, Raut. My only real motivation in writing it this way was that all i seem to see recently are theists trying to claim atheism is a “belief.” Of course, that’s just theists attempting to drag atheism down to their level so i thought a simple definition was needed.
Holy crap! Stop – I can’t take it. I go away for a week and all “hell” breaks loose.
John – you couldn’t have stated the obvious more eloquently if you tried. The reality of the matter is painfully simple. The conclusion is drawn by those lucky enough to maintain unfettered possession of their minds. Belief in God is akin to brainwashing. I defy the “God fearing” masses of this world to approach the subject objectively. Why else would the church burn scientists at the stake, annihilate non christian civilizations, sit on plundered riches beyond imagination, point fingers at the “Godless” sinners while covering up horrendous atrocities,and twist truth to fit God’s will.
My ass! The most brilliant pyramid scheme in history. I pity the fools who bought into it. I can’t even bring myself to argue the point with close minded thinkers. I don’t give a rat’s ass what any person cares to believe. Knock yourself out. – but don’t you dare pass holier than thou judgement on my reasonable conclusion.
It isn’t even fun to argue the point, and I for one don’t feel the need to justify my conclusion. I like my brother’s solution to bible thumpers who kept knocking on his door. He’s a trapper (yes politically inccorect and loving it) – one Saturday morning too many they disturbed him as he was skinning a Marmot, opening the door, Marmot in hand they asked what it was – my cat, he answered – they never bothered him again.
Ape shit is clearly an understatement. I crapped on the spot! Trip was amazing. The lights only danced for a moment, too many clouds. On the upside – the weather didn’t disappoint. White knuckle roads, heaps of blowing snow, and many, many glasses of wine.
Wow, we’re really playing on semantics here. Technically both are appropriate, in my opinion, but I’m not interested in arguing over that. How did you come to this conclusion, Prayson asks? Well, I don’t want to put words in your mouth, John, but was it not by the same method that led you to conclude that leprechauns and fairies don’t exist? Specifically, that all three lack any evidence in support of their existence.
Prayson, and many other theists are demonstrating some contorted logic by asking atheists to prove gods don’t exist. However, I don’t have a problem with that. I can do it quite easily. I direct their attention to the lack of evidence, the evidence for human credulity with respect to supernatural claims, the history of gods and religion, and finally, every scientific discovery that the human race has ever made. Why do I add the scientific discoveries? Because every last one of them, without exception, has demonstrated that gods are not necessary. Every time they point to an unknown, we eventually make it known, and gods are nowhere to be found.
By examining the god claim from this angle, I see more than enough “evidence” to denounce it.
It’s a game i see employed all the time, R.L…. When actually confronted with proving their god the apologist whips its around and demands the non-believer prove the negative. It really does demonstrate the weakness of their beliefs and is, in fact, evidence of the fallacy in by itself.
Haven’t seen a post from you for a while. Still cutting away at the book idea?
I completely agree. It’s a curious position to take, but then again, do expect anything different from them?
Yes, I’m still chipping away at the book. While I was doing some research for my next section I discovered some mistakes in “Cultural Diffusion”. I started re-writing that, and clarifying some points that caused confusion, which has delayed the release of everything else. I always intended to go back and expand on previous topics, but there are some points that need to be made in order for the following sections to make any sense.
Not to worry! I should finish something soon… maybe. 🙂
I didn’t know the words were that new, but I know people weren’t called atheists back in the day. I can’t remember exactly what they were called – skeptics perhaps.
I did, however, perform a quick search and found that during Socrates’ trial, they accused him of being atheos…
@ Vidasdecristo
“Ark, you can not offer an educated rebuttal to my commentary on the 41st Chapter of Isaiah so you revert to childish name calling and insults.”
Actually, hotshot, I was referring to this verse;
Isaiah 7:14: The (non-prophesied ) Virgin Birth, and when you understand this, it rather pisses on your bonfire somewhat. Ne’er mind, your mate, Geez-Us? still wants you for a sunbeam.
thesuperstitiousnakedape.wordpress.com 
Well said! That takes the place of 2000 words!
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Agreed. Short memes are just as, if not more powerful than essays.
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I disagree. There are theists, atheists and there are artists 😉
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Hehehe!
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That’s what I meant when I asked you about two different ideologies cause I relate to neither.
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You don’t have to relate to anything except that which makes sense to you. This is an atheist-themed blog, but away from these pages i’ve never found myself compelled to ever bring it up, unless asked.
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Who needs “atheism” more? The theists or the atheists?
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Great point! Atheism is the default setting. Every child, without exception, is born atheist. Without that backdrop, that curtain upon which to project themselves, theists couldn’t exist.
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The average theist is like a loving parent of a child being accused of murder.
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To the average theist i feel only sympathy. My rage is reserved for evangelicals meddling in our secular societies.
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i agree. Their cognitive dissonance is exploited by those selling peace of mind.
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I can’t describe how I love this metaphor.
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Do you believe that conclusion to be true?
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Prayson, nice try, but don’t you get tired of chasing your tail, always offering up circular rebuttals? 🙂
A “conclusion,” by its nature, means the agreed upon results of an investigation to ascertain the verification of a theory; ie. I believe scripture to be a load of codswallop and the gods nothing but the creation of sane but otherwise very frightened individuals.
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You did not answer the question John.
Do you believe viz., accepting something as true that atheism is a conclusion, not a belief?
How did you come the conclusion that atheism is a conclusion, not a belief? Or any another way, how did you came to believe your conclusion?
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I could play your game and simply ask you to present what evidence you have for your god… which, of course, will be zero. It’s tempting, but as you will not be able to present anything tangible you’ll just dance around the request and recast the same circular question with different words. I’ll instead use your god against itself:
“Present your case,” says the Lord, “Tell us, you idols, what is going to happen. Declare to us the things to come, tell us what the future holds so we may know you are gods. Do something, whether good or bad, so that we will be dismayed and filled with fear. But you are less than nothing and your works are utterly worthless; whoever chooses you is detestable.” (Isaiah 41: 21-24)
So, what’s good for the goose….
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Well John, it seem you are avoiding the question. Actually it is you who need to “present what evidence you have for” your claim that atheism is a conclusion, not a belief.
Do you want your readers, John, to simply “believe” what you said without rationally showing how you came to hold such a belief/notion/idea( call it whatever you wish) that atheism is a conclusion?
Turning the table, to avoid defending your case, wont work here John. You made a claim, you defend it.
So before I blindly hold your “belief”/idea/statement that atheism is a conclusion,not a belief, I wish to have good reasons to believe what you believe John. Or you don’t believe that atheism is a conclusion, not a belief? 😀
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Prayson, now don’t go wriggling out of this. The ball is firmly in your court… your own god said “Prove it, or you’re worthless!”
Has your god lived up to its own words, followed its own directive, adhered to its own demand?
I’ll be waiting for your answer….
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Ironically it is I who asks you, John: “Prove it, or you’re worthless!” that atheism is a conclusion, not a belief.
John it is I who will be waiting for your answer. You can not simply make a claim, and run for cover in a rabbit hole.
You claimed that atheism is a conclusion, not a belief. Well, if you want me not to simply have blind belief on your claim then prove it John.
Prove that atheism is a conclusion, not a belief.
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Prayson, I will present it again:
“Present your case,” says the Lord, “Tell us, you idols, what is going to happen. Declare to us the things to come, tell us what the future holds so we may know you are gods. Do something, whether good or bad, so that we will be dismayed and filled with fear. But you are less than nothing and your works are utterly worthless; whoever chooses you is detestable.” (Isaiah 41: 21-24)
I’ll be waiting…
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Jack: Ataxation(a notion that we should not pay tax) is a conclusion, not a belief.
Peter: Do you believe that Jack
Jack: Good try Pett
Peter: Well, I want to know if Ataxation is true. I can’t simply believe it without reason.
Jack: Your tax papers say give reasons. So you give reasons why Taxation is true.
Peter: Jack you can’t simply assert things hoping others to show otherwise.
Do you see Jack and Peter, John?
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Prayson, come on now… back to the reservation. Your own god is quite clear about the proof necessary to judge it’s a god. Your god laid it out in some detail. It’s right there in Isaiah! You want me to post it again? Will that help?
Are you ignoring your own scripture? Or is that scripture wrong? Is it in error? If it’s not in error then you should be able to provide the evidences your god DEMANDED other gods produce to prove they’re gods.
Like I said, I’ll be waiting….
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We are not talking about “my God” John but your claim that atheism is a conclusion, not a belief.
Changing the subject to “my God” is simply redherring because I did not claim anything about “my God”. You made a claim, it is your job to defend it, John? 🙂
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Prayson, your pirouettes won’t work. Your god laid out the criteria to prove it exists. If you believe in your god then you should be able to easily present the case following your gods own directive. Do you want me to re-post Isaiah so you can go over the criteria again? It’s pretty specific….
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🙂 I know what Isaiah is saying, what I wish to know is what reasons can you offer to hold the belief: that atheism is a conclusion, not a belief?
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How is pointing to Isaiah defending your claim that atheism is a conclusion, not a belief?
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I’m not pointing to Isaiah, I’m indicating what your own god fellow apparently said needed to be done to prove its a god. That’s what scripture is, isn’t it? The word of your god. So, your god has laid out the criteria, and as you have NOT been able to satisfy a single point on that list to me it invariably leads me to the CONCLUSION that it’s all bullshit.
There, see how conclusions are arrived at?
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Cool. Let’s say you are correct about Christian God. Let assume I am a fellow atheist who is trying to find the truth and the truth only. How is atheism a conclusion, not a belief?
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I’m getting bored with this….
I did list it
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As always. Thank you John. Though I don’t think I have enough faith to believe that “atheism is a conclusion, not a belief” without you offering any reason why you think that it is true that “atheism is a conclusion, not a belief”.
Thanks for everything though. Off to see Manchester Utd game. Cheers friends.
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Pulling a couple verses out of a Chapter in the Bible is disingenuous John, and it really doesn’t show your intelligence. The meaning of the versus you quote, taken out-of-context does not mean what you infer it to mean.
Verses 1-7 God summons the Nations and their idols to court.
Verses 8-16 the first servant is introduced. (Israel)
Verses 17-20 shows what God did for His first servant.
Verses 21-24 God challenges the pagan gods to show that they are really gods. Let them predict future events, or explain the significance of past events; let them actually do anything at all, either good or evil. Their utter inability to meet such a challenge entitles them to the vehement denunciation that God here made of pagan gods. They are nothing, of no account, helpless, and incapable of doing anything whatsoever, either of good or of evil!
*****
“Belief” verses “conclusion” seems to me is just a matter of semantics. The two words are interchangeable in this context. (You believe your conclusion is true, based solely on your belief you have no conclusive proof) ( I believe my conclusion is also true, based solely on my belief I have conclusive proof.)
*****
Consider this analogy…God lives at 2323 Main St., Hutchings, Florida.
You/I go to this address, me one day and you the next. We both see the blinds closed and no sign of life inside.
Me – I want to know, so I knock. I meet Him and find it is true, my life is changed forever.
You – You do not knock. You then assume, not only is God not there, He also does not exist.
Everyone is given the choice to knock, find, believe, surrender, submit, and receive what it is to know His love, or not. I also understand if He wants you then you can’t run fast enough to get away.
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Hi Roy… so, let me get this straight: its wrong if i use scripture, but ok when you do? That’s odd. And anyway, it’s not at all taken out of context. this god challenges other gods to prove themselves, it lays out the criteria by which they can do so. My point was quite simple: if your god has a checklist which it thinks would prove a gods status then your god should be able to match that. Wouldn’t you agree? What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. Your god asks for proof, so let’s see your god prove itself. Of course, that will never happen, and we all know why, right?
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Greetings John,
Come on man, do you not think I understand you? You add insulting words to scripture that were never there and imply meaning that is untrue. It’s a diversion tactic and fails to sway the educated. I’m not going to call you a liar because I know you know exactly what you are doing. Your not lying, your mocking.
In the verses you site God is not referring to Himself. He has already proved Himself to the chosen. It’s the pagan idols that must prove their worth.
The 41st Chapter of Isiah is powerful. God’s care of his people. (1-9) they are encouraged not to fear. (10-20) The vanity and folly of idolatry. (21-29)
Can any heathen god raise up one in righteousness, make what use of him he pleases, and make him victorious over the nations? The Lord did so with Abraham, or rather, he would do so with Cyrus. Sinners encourage one another in the ways of sin; shall not the servants of the living God stir up one another in his service? God’s people are the seed of Abraham his friend. This is certainly the highest title ever given to a mortal. It means that Abraham, by Divine grace, was made like to God, and that he was admitted to communion with Him. Happy are the servants of the Lord, whom he has called to be his friends, and to walk with him in faith and holy obedience. Let not such as have thus been favoured yield to fear; for the contest may be sharp, but the victory shall be sure.
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No cigar, Roy…. Not good when own scripture doubles back on you. Your god has proved itself to no one, and if it wants to then we have the criteria it identified.
so, i guess we’ll all be waiting for you god to actually put its money where its mouth is, eh?
Probably going to be a long wait, right….
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@Vidachristo
You quote Isaiah and are too dense to even know the most famous verse isn’t even about your supposed man god.
The average half literate atheist understands more about the bible than any half baked reborn.
Go study.
What a wally
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Ark, you can not offer an educated rebuttal to my commentary on the 41st Chapter of Isaiah so you revert to childish name calling and insults. I have a picture of you in my head and you are stomping your feet and yelling like a baby.
The Bible is like most books, it contains Chapters, which are also a segment of the whole. When anyone sits down to read a book do they just read the last three sentences in a Chapter? No, that would be silly. First, you will miss out on a lot, and second, those last three sentences will have little, if any, meaning to you.
I laid out the true meaning in the 41st Chapter…To Israel the Lord says, Ye are my servants; I will preserve you—Idols are nothing—One will bring good tidings to Jerusalem.
Verses 1-7 God summons the Nations and their idols to court.
Verses 8-16 the first servant is introduced. (Israel)
Verses 17-20 shows what God did for His first servant.
Verses 21-24 God challenges the pagan gods to show that they are really gods. Let them predict future events, or explain the significance of past events; let them actually do anything at all, either good or evil. Their utter inability to meet such a challenge entitles them to the vehement denunciation that God here made of pagan gods. They are nothing, of no account, helpless, and incapable of doing anything whatsoever, either of good or of evil!
*****
CLUBSCHADENFREUDE and vidasdecristo, Your entire paragraph, no edits, and what I would write….
c.I have come to the conclusion that apples are red.
v.I have come to the conclusion that God is real.
c. I do not simply believe that they are with no evidence.
v. I simply believe that He is and I have evidence.
c.I have apples, I have spectrometers that can show me the frequency of light reflecting from the apple, etc.
v. I have God. The Lord is my strength and my shield; my heart trusts in him, and I know a joy that is so comforting it is hard to describe, I am helped. I have purpose and a place reserved.
c. You believe in your god but you haven’t anythign similar to show that your god exists.
v. I believe in my God because he removed a deadly addiction that I was powerless against and that was sure to kill me. He presented a warning to me in a dream and because of that I avoided a terrible car accident. He saved my life at least 4 times, that I know of. My personal relationship with God is my greatest treasure.
c. And hilariously, you again know you’ve failed and showing your god is anything but a myth and now run away. Cue the coconuts!
v. I love you, insults and all.
****
Since God is not going to “show” Himself to every single person on this planet, nor will any logical argument I submit sway you, all I can give as proof and evidence is not why I believe, it’s why you do not.
Consider this analogy…God lives at 2323 Main St., Hutchings, Florida.
You/I go to this address, me one day and you the next. We both see the blinds closed and no sign of life inside.
Me – I want to know, so I knock. I meet Him and find it is true, my life is changed forever.
You – You do not knock. You then assume, not only is God not there, He also does not exist.
Everyone is given the choice to knock, find, believe, surrender, submit, and receive what it is to know His love, or not. I also understand if He wants you then you can’t run fast enough to get away.
The evidence lives inside me and manifests itself in the joy it brings to my life. I’m sorry if that is not enough to convince you, but I can’t summon God like I do the Domino’s pizza delivery guy.
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Out of interest Roy, why, in your mind, won’t your god follow its own rules of engagement and prove itself just as it demanded of the other gods? And please give a direct answer, not an essay where you ignore answering the question.
Is it not capable?
“Present your case,” says the Lord, “Tell us, you idols, what is going to happen. Declare to us the things to come, tell us what the future holds so we may know you are gods. Do something, whether good or bad, so that we will be dismayed and filled with fear. But you are less than nothing and your works are utterly worthless; whoever chooses you is detestable.” (Isaiah 41: 21-24)
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I can’t find a way to respond to VIDASDECRISTO …
But, John … what do you think about putting up a warning banner or something about this guy …?
“Please be warned of the rambling lunatic: VIDASDECRISTO. He believes that he’s speaking the word of God, and he’s easily encouraged.”
Something … I mean, no one is “sane” … but, this guy should be retarded.
Hey … I mean, like, he should be held back …
NOT like held back in school …
Kept under control.
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Roy is a little susceptible to the fantasy of his particular religion. He can say whatever he likes here, i won’t ban him or any theist, its an open forum unlike most theist blogs…. he’s actually only proving how retarded evangelical religious belief really is. I only hope in his real world he keeps that crazy shit away from children.
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Agreed. I don’t think he should be banned, either. But, a warning might be humane to your other readers.
I’m kidding … but, wow.
Yes, I pray to his Christ … keep this man away from children. Please, Lord. Lord?
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Changed your Gravatar name Christo? I cruised your website again and I don’t see the connection to your comments about me.
I see none of this at your web site. It has a personal touch of class and artistry. No hateful posts or hateful comments such as these. Very strange. Are you just playing to the band. I suggest you stand like a man, you’ll feel better about yourself. Those that hold strong to their beliefs yet also admit they do not know everything there is to know are the most mentally stable. We have to maintain a little wiggle room because a closed mind is a dead mind. Respect for those who have a different opinion will serve you well because they are everywhere.
Although I believe in God, the underlying theme of the Bible, and the soul, I also see evidence “the gods” of ancient civilizations probably were aliens. Every ancient civilization believes in the gods. There are UFO type aircraft in many old paintings, Egyptian hieroglyphs that resemble flying craft, Bible narratives that resemble flying craft, even the Israelites’ are said to follow a pillar of smoke and fire while wandering in exile, and on and on.
If John didn’t want a different perspective he could block me, or even make his site “members only” so only fellow Atheists can comment. But, is it all you want to to do is pat each other on the back, never hearing a different perspective and why one would hold such?
So here I am, trying my best to use the education I have to try to convey the other side of your belief, conclusion, or whatever word you want to use to define it. In dealing with my own problems then helping others, I’ve learned we have a tendency to ridicule what frightens us. It’s one of our best coping skills or we’d be in a state of perpetual panic. I know the insults are not personal, it’s the beliefs we espouse.
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John,
You ask for the One who created everything to answer his own challenge to the idols. I answered already John. You don’t believe the Biblical narrative, and I have no telephone number to God so we can set an appointment to get you the proof you require. Nothing I can do, say, or testify to, will prove to you what I feel in my heart is true. It’s a personal relationship, one and God.
The only thing I can do is, when you quote Scripture to prove your point, is to show you how you are wrong. God hates shrimp my love….wrong.
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So, Roy, you have nothing but a feeling. Your god cannot meet its OWN challenge, a criteria clearly laid out in its own book which you believe to be 100% accurate. As you can see, this is just another piece of evidence leading to the logical and rational adult “conclusion” that all gods are the fanciful invention of desperately frightened individuals looking for 1. some solace and comfort in their lives, and/or 2. a little supernatural spice, even if they know deep down that it’s just make-believe.
Now, you can believe in an invisible, talking house brick for all I care. Just keep that belief off our streets, out of our schools, out of our governments, our science, and out of our military. If you can follow this rather simple secular directive then we atheists will have no need to challenge you and point out that your invisible, talking house brick doesn’t exist.
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AHHHH, now we get to the rub. Took us awhile John, but I had a feeling there just had to be more to it. I’ve been wondering why all the hostility, now I know.
You want my belief off our streets, out of our schools, out of our governments, our science, and out of our military.
You are the trespasser John. Believers came to this country to be free to worship GodIt’s a God-centered Nation, so you can find your own place if you don’t like it. Ever read our Declaration of Independence?
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”
The screaming between your ears will keep getting louder and louder. Look it up, “death bed Atheists confessions”.
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Excuse me? Seems you don’t understand the meaning of what a “Secular” country is.
Roy, if you want a theocracy please move to Somalia. It’ll suit your needs perfectly.
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America was not founded as a secular nation John.
Congress has always held daily prayers, and the First Congress mandated distribution of Bibles in the territories. So the correct description of our national government isn’t that it was secular, but that it didn’t establish one Christian denomination over others.
Consider Federalist No. 2, an essay by John Jay in 1787. “that Providence has been pleased to give this one connected country to one united people—a people descended from the same ancestors, speaking the same language, professing the same religion, attached to the same principles of government, …”
The First Amendment, as originally understood, merely stipulated that there be no established national church—no denomination favored by the federal government nor supported by federal monies. And the Constitution’s Article VI assures that there’s no religious test to hold national office.
Your belief is protected, just as mine is. And you have no standing to demand I do anything in regards to whatever religions belief I happen to practice. NONE. It’s not your Country John, it’s ours.
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Nice try, Roy, but fail.
“As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.”
-Treaty of Tripoli (submitted to the Senate by President John Adams, ratified unanimously by the U.S. Senate on June 7, 1797 and signed by Adams, taking effect as the law of the land on June 10, 1797.)
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America is not a theocracy and everything the Founding Fathers created was to ensure this, after all it was mostly theocratic governments the influx of immigrants were fleeing from.
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“I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology.”
-Thomas Jefferson
“We establish no religion in this country. We command no worship. We mandate no belief, nor will we ever. Church and State are and must remain separate.”
-Ronald Reagan.
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again, dear Prayson, evidence that it is not. Show me evidence of your god. We’ve seen the usual circular argumetns; the arguments that can be used for any god, not just yours; the claims of physical evidence which never turns up, the bible which is full of contradictions, incorrect information, etc.
I have come to the conclusion that apples are red. I do not simply believe that they are with no evidence. I have apples, I have spectrometers that can show me the frequency of light reflecting from the apple, etc. You believe in your god but you haven’t anythign similar to show that your god exists. And hilariously, you again know you’ve failed and showing your god is anything but a myth and now run away. Cue the coconuts!
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Sweet!!!
(And the Isaiah quote was the perfect response! Another to: “how did you came (sic) to believe your conclusion” — might be “observation and logic, as opposed to superstition and hearsay.”)
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Brilliant Stephen. Could you present that observation and logic?
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Circular argument, Prayson. In fact, its the King o all strawman arguments. Tell me, what is there is to “observe”?
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John, a question is not an argument, thus it cannot be “circular argument” 😀
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Prayson, answer the question: what is there to observe?
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Well that is my question to Stephen 🙂 Join in waiting for a reply 😀
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That “is” the answer: there is nothing to “observe.” If you can prove that otherwise go ahead, knock yourself out…. I’d be most interested in hearing what there is to “observe”
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Is atheism a conclusion, not a belief because there is nothing to observe?
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Not in its entirety. One may also look to the contradictory nonsense in scripture, the failure of all prophets, the absence of anything supernatural, the absence of evidence for spirit, and the failure of a single person out of 17,000,000,000 (who’ve lived and died over the last 6,600 generations) to get a message back to our biosphere confirming the existence of some ethereal netherworld… of which there is no evidence.
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Okay. But how does that show that atheism is a conclusion, not a belief?
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Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.
However, if a god ever materializes I promise not to crucify him.
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The question is do you believe that “atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities”? If so, how is that not a belief?
Moreover, if atheism is absence of belief that any deities, then mental ill person, animals, tree, chairs, rocks are all atheists 🙂
Moreover, let assume Pope Benedict suddenly got alzheimer, and forgot that he ever believed in God or say the belief part of the brain was remove, it is absurd because if atheism is absence of belief, then we would have an atheist Pope. 😀
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@ Prayson
Atheism is patently the default position – meaning humans were unaware of deities until they decided to invent them. And children are definitely atheists until they are inculcated. So, obviously, there is no belief.
Any suggestion to the contrary is quite plainly delusional and indicative of the mental illness you mentioned. You aren’t mentally ill are you?
The Pope may not be an atheist but he is definitely a cross dresser.
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As I have told you before that according to New Scientist: 4th February 2009, Michael Brooks contended that science after 1970s indicates that “our minds are finely tuned to believes in gods” while on March 21th 2012 Justin L. Barrett contended childrens “minds are naturally tuned up to believe in gods”.
And pointed you to contemporary researches contending for the that conclusion:
1. Scott Atran, atheist anthropologist, in his book “In Gods We Trust”(2002)
2. Pascal Boyer, atheist evolutionary psychologist and anthropologist, “Religion Explained”(2001)
3. Deborah Kelemen, psychologist based on research in cognitive development,”Are Children “Intuitive Theists”? in Psychological Science Journals May 2004 15: 295-301
4. Philippe Rochat, Tricia Striano, Rachel Morgan, “Who is doing what to whom? Young infants’ developing sense of social causality in animated displays”, Perception Journal 2004: Vol. 33: 355-369
5. Justin L. Barrett and Amanda Johnson, ” The Role of Control in Attributing Intentional Agency to Inanimate Objects”, Journal of Cognition and Culture 3.3 2003 208-217
Your belief that children are definitely atheists until they are inculcated is sadly scientifically proven wrong.
If I were mental ill, and the part of the brain that hold a belief that God exist is dead then I would be an atheist 🙂
Well. Thank you both of you for a wonderful chat as always. Cheers mates.
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That seals it. You are mentally ill.
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😉
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Children are born atheist. It is a no brainer.
It matters not how you wish to define atheism but a baby has no cognitive ability to recognize the term theism.
Barrett is a Christian ( Unfortunately, they tell lies, sometimes intentionally so this immediately disqualifies him) and his research was sponsored by the Templeton foundation…oops. The same organisation that is trying to establish that science and religion can work together like real pals. Barf )
I should say that Barrett’s research is about as non-Partisan as that dickhead William Lane Craig and his views on Christianity
How can anyone trust anything you might suggest if you are going to put forward someone like Barrett.
And now that I have discovered you are a Manchester United supporter I am even more convinced you are mentally unstable.
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A mental unstable United fan. I deserve no less 🙂 cheers mate.
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This begs the question, “Are United fans born or made?”
Maybe you mate, Mister Barrett could run a few tests?
Maybe you could volunteer? Cor, yeah.
Man United fans are mental.
Christians support Man United
Therefore, Christians are mental.
See how easy it is?
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Sold me!
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Children have a natural theism.
Developmental psychologists have provided evidence that children are naturally tuned to believe in gods of one sort or another.
1) Children tend to see natural objects as designed or purposeful in ways that go beyond what their parents teach, as Deborah Kelemen has demonstrated. Rivers exist so that we can go fishing on them, and birds are here to look pretty.
2) Children doubt that impersonal processes can create order or purpose. Studies with children show that they expect that someone not something is behind natural order. No wonder that Margaret Evans found that children younger than 10 favored creationist accounts of the origins of animals over evolutionary accounts even when their parents and teachers endorsed evolution. Authorities’ testimony didn’t carry enough weight to over-ride a natural tendency.
3) Children know humans are not behind the order so the idea of a creating god (or gods) makes sense to them. Children just need adults to specify which one.
4) Experimental evidence, including cross-cultural studies, suggests that three-year-olds attribute super, god-like qualities to lots of different beings. Super-power, super-knowledge and super-perception seem to be default assumptions. Children then have to learn that mother is fallible, and dad is not all powerful, and that people will die. So children may be particularly receptive to the idea of a super creator-god. It fits their predilections.
5) Recent research by Paul Bloom, Jesse Bering, and Emma Cohen suggests that children may also be predisposed to believe in a soul that persists beyond death.
Basically, Atheism is not an ignorance of God, but a definite “no-proof belief” against the existence of God. You could describe a baby as “agnostic”, without knowledge, but atheism, as an observable social phenomenon is more describable as “against god belief”, whether than “without God belief”. after all, how can a person be without something, and yet opposed to that to which they claim does not exist?
Therefore, none of us are born as Atheist, and I have never met an Atheist yet who did not decide to take that view after learning that others believe in God, and disagreeing with said belief, so it is a later “no-proof” belief, and a prejudiced reaction to that which they are ignorant of, instead if simple ignorance which the agnostic suggests. So it could be said that babies are agnostic, but I have not met a baby yet which would argue against belief in God, as Atheists often do.
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“Developmental psychologists have provided evidence that children are naturally tuned to believe in gods of one sort or another.”
And the part of the sentence, ‘of one sort or another’, is crucial.
You slated John for being disingenuous and you do exactly the same. No, correction, worse, in fact as it is this type of ‘effed’ up statement that creates newspaper headlines erroneously suggesting, “Kids Believe in God” , which is a whole pile of steaming elephant turds.
Children have creative imaginations, something that is crucial for mental acuity and problem solving.
However,all this means is their minds are like sponges that are able absorb and assimilate millions of ideas.
Most of the nonsense they either reject or grow out of. Santa, Tooth Fairy, Talking bunny rabbits, Bogeymen, and such like.
God-belief is generally cultivated and inculcated from a young age.
Children are subject to shit like the meek and mild Jesus, Noah,Moses,and how god mad mankind.
By the time children have reached the age where they are able to question without fear of adult reprisal much of this diatribe has already been implanted.
Some are able to go on and reject it for the rubbish it is, while others spend much of their life under the yoke of religion.
Go ask ANY de-convertee what they experience once they begin their journey. It is often more mentally and physically traumatic than kicking drug addiction.
Statements such as yours are slanted, biased, and grossly irresponsible and only a real dick head would spread such diatribe.
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What Planet do you live on Ark? Earth right?
Children born to Christian parents in the USA most likely will be taught and raised Christian and stay that way.
Children born to Muslim parents in Saudi Arabia most likely will be taught and raised Muslim and stay that way.
Children born to Hindu parents in India most likely will be taught and raised Hindu and stay that way.
Children are naturally tuned to believe in gods “of one sort or another”. Reality proves this, scientist and researchers have found evidence, not me..
Do kiss your mother with that mouth?
I suppose every “educated” point you make might be true, and if so, proves the marvel of being Human. No matter how we are raised, what we are taught, what trauma we may, or may not, go through, we have within us the ability to change, heal, and be productive. We have the marvel of seeking truth, studying, reasoning, comparing, and ultimately coming to a decision for ourselves. You do not have to settle for your “station” in life, nor what religion you might have been “taught”.
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Children have a natural propensity for lots of things.
Gods, can be referred to as anything considered supernatural (read. Not Real. . Thus, to a child, a concept such as Santa Claus is as magical and wondrous as a the thought that a god made everything.
Education is a wondrous thing, is it not? Which is why people like Barrett and his god-tests seem all the more credible because of his education and super duper organisations like the Templeton Foundation.
William Lane Craig has tons of qualifications. And, guess what? He is still a dick head.
However, this does not equate to wisdom. As the character, Jesus was as uneducated as they come, a thick-as-two-short-planks carpenter from a made up town and yet millions upon millions defer to his ‘wisdom.’
Which only goes to show how many can be fooled. It should then come as no surprise that a chap like Barrett and his ilk would be fawned and feted by the theological community.
Obviously, you never got over your propensity for god belief which pretty much shows you never paid attention to this little ditty in that book you love so much.
“When I was a child I spoke as a child I understood as a child I thought as a child; but when I became a man I put away childish things.” I Cor. xiii. 11.
But be of good cheer. There is still time.
Now, look at the meme on John’s post and instead of kneeling by your bed with your hands together in supplication to Yahweh, repeat it 100 times.
Atheism is a conclusion, not a belief.
Go on…you know its the right thing to do.
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Ark,
Ah, again with the insults and hate. Do you know what that will do to your health?
Anger is a huge contributor to most diseases. anger devitalizes the entire body so it becomes susceptible to disease. The disturbance caused in your body causes you to become sick.
More specifically, hate causes an energy imbalance in the body. Anger stimulates the liver which causes a rush of energy to the head. All inflammation, cysts, tumors, cancer, etc. are due to too much energy around the cells/organs. anger, stress, worry, fear, and other negative emotions make your cells overactive which causes these conditions.
When cells vibrate, they are contracting and expanding. When cells contract, matter inside the cells transforms into energy that radiates out to the space between the cells and outside the cells. After contracting, cells will then expand. when cells expand, the energy between the cells will transform back into matter inside the cells. When you are healthy, the cellular respiration and the transformation between matter and energy at the cellular level is in relative balance. when you get angry, you upset that balance.
Negative emotion affects your Endocrinol systems…..negative emotions create stress in your body and stress is at the bottom of many physical ailments.
it’s ironic you quote 1 Corinthians 13, which speaks of Love.
I’m trying to wear a thick skin around here like John suggested, but I also need to be honest with you.
*******
You can not use Scripture against itself, it’s too perfect. Pulling one verses out of a Chapter and saying it means what it clearly does not will never help you win your argument.
1 Corinthians 13 is the heart of Paul’s teaching on spiritual gifts and their role in sanctification. You would be a wise man to heed the instructions given. Even an Atheist would benefit from this…
4. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.
11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.
12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
*******
So you see, once again you pull one little sentence out of 13 and try to infer a meaning that is false. In this chapter, the apostle shows that divine love is the greatest of all gifts. Divine love is supreme, and is the “more excellent way” to Christian perfection. The New Testament reveals that spiritual growth is a process–a sanctification process by which Christians develop from immature “babes” into “full grown” saints.
To understand the verse you quote you have to look at the sentence before, and the one after, to understand.
BEFORE – but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.
When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.
AFTER -For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
******
Whatever it is you believe due to a conclusion you made is your own decision.
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“Scripture is perfect?” WTF???
Hey, Roy, i could off course fill this reply with THOUSANDS of examples that simply destroy this absurd statement, but I’ll give you just one: “All flying insects that walk on all fours are to be detestable to you. (Leviticus 11:20).
So, Roy, could you now list all those flying insects who walk on four legs…. I’ll be waiting.
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Sure, I can easily explain your out-of-context verse. Since I have done several already please do one for me first. explain what you think this verse may mean;
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.Matthew 7:6
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Nice attempt at a deflection, but i ain’t biting. I really can’t blame you, though. Your god has failed to meet its own standard, which is somewhat embarrassing, isn’t it?
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Not at all John. If it’s good for me it is also good for you too. I already told you I understand now. At first I just thought you were ignorant of Scripture. Then I thought you were a liar. Now I see your fear and fear mocks. It seeps through every word you write.
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Oh blow it, Roy. You do bore me.
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I think it’s fair to say that some (definitely not all) Christians come to the conclusion that their god exists. Is the difference not that they don’t have any *physical* evidence on which to base their conclusion? It’s still a conclusion nonetheless. The beauty of the Christian argument is that their god defines everything, and his creations (us humans) are too stupid to understand much, so there’s wriggle room no matter what logical line to the contrary is demonstrated.
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Agreed. If a theist really wants to dig their heals in they’ll simply blot out all the things that contradict that belief. Said it before, but the majority of theists are just scared individuals, and for that they do deserve our sympathy. It’s the science-denying, end of the world longing evangelicals that get under my collar.
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Atheists come to their conclusions from reading lots of books, Christians come to their conclusions by reading only one.
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Nailed it! Actually, it’s even worse than that. Most Christians have never even read the bible. They’re Christians only because their parents were. They’d be Muslim or Mithraists if their parents were Muslim or Mithraists.
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I like that! But the opposite is often true too – I came to my atheistic conclusion with the help of only one book – the Bible – and Christians trying to make sense of the cruel nonsense that’s in it often read endless piles of ‘study’ books, that give them acceptable interpretations.
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Yup, as the saying goes, the fastest way to atheism is to read the bible! 😉
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So true – reading the Bible from start to finish was the beginning of the end for me. It reminds me of a quote from Frederick Douglass: “I have found that, to make a contented slave, it is necessary to make a thoughtless one. It is necessary to darken his moral and mental vision, and as far as possible, to annihilate the power of reason. He must be able to detect no inconsistencies in slavery; he must be made to feel that slavery is right; and he can be brought to that only when he ceases to be a man.”
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Nice! I’m going to keep that one in my tool belt!
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I know atheism is the default position of humanity ‘cos god told me.
Oh, dear, I note you got drawn into a silly conversation with an aberration.
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Yup! I’ve done this dance before, i know the music 😦
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Don’t be a spoilsport…we can make this the most commented post in history. You game? 🙂
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Go for it. My head already hurts….
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Christopher Hitchens once stated: “what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.” Following Hitchens, “atheism is a conclusion, not a belief” is asserted without evidence, there I think, Hitchens would wish me to dismiss it without evidence 🙂
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Errrrr, it’s you, Prayson, who has no evidence…. or have you forgotten that awkward fact?
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I am enjoying Man Utd vs Reading game, with hot milk tea 🙂 Cheers mate.
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Doesn’t change the fact you have no evidence. I do. Can I see a god? No. Can I hear a god? No. Do i see the work of a god anywhere? No. Evidence, evidence, and evidence.
Enjoy the game, though.
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🙂
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Right On…And it’s the conclusion some come to after too much Theism.
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That’s certainly one way to reality!
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Have you read about this? I was thinking about doing a piece on it, but it may be more in your neighborhood. Just a thought.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/02/18/the-scourge-of-witch-burnings-in-the-south-pacific.html
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Ah yes, i saw this last week. Superstition at its very, very worst. A while ago i forced myself to watch a video. I didn’t want to, it offended every sensibility i have, but i did. It was the burning of witches in Kenya. There were 3 or 4 and they were put to flame by a crowd. It was truly horrific. There were no stakes, just an open fire and they were sort of pushed onto it. They crawled out and were pushed back in. It wasn’t even a large fire and it quickly spread out into a few small fires. This thing went on and on and on, these poor people just sitting in fire slowly cooking. No one put them out of their agony. The crowd just watched, and if one of them crawled free (as they did) a burning branch was tossed over their back. The video ended before they were even dead so i can only imagine how much longer it went on for. I watched to learn, to see what humans are capable of… and it was the most abhorrent thing i hope i ever have to witness.
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That is one of the worst things I’ve ever heard. Just horrible….
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You got that right.
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thats what I was tellin you bef4
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What was that?
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I am an atheist, but I hold beliefs. I do believe the sun will rise again tomorrow. I do not know it will, but everything in my empirical experience seems to point to that, and even my scientific knowledge says it will.
What I do not sport is faith. To me faith seems like belief without evidence. All gods I know of, demand exactly that from people. Theists regardless of creed hold faith very important. It seems to be a requirement for some favours from these alledged gods. But there are also the theists who are not content with simple faith. They also require evidence. What they accept as evidence is appaling and a bit pathetic, but their thirst for evidence seems to go against the requirement of faith.
Why is faith required? Perhaps, because the evidence for gods to exist is rather more flimsy in comparrison to such things we otherwise believe because of evidence. Why am I not simply agnostic and skeptical about the suggested gods, is well, because there is so much concrete evidence against their existance. That is why my stance is not to hold a belief in gods. It is not a belief in not believing. I know, I do not believe. That is why my position is a conclusion not a belief.
However, it is interresting how often the theists would want to drag atheism to the level of just one belief, or even a religion among all the others. Why is this? How can people who think their faith is a validation for some particular truth, even think that the faith of a nother person would infact invalidate those views? As if atheism would be less valid, if it was just a nother religion, or belief. Should we think these theists think their religion is actually less valid as it is just a nother religion, or belief.
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Excellent clarification, Raut. My only real motivation in writing it this way was that all i seem to see recently are theists trying to claim atheism is a “belief.” Of course, that’s just theists attempting to drag atheism down to their level so i thought a simple definition was needed.
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Holy crap! Stop – I can’t take it. I go away for a week and all “hell” breaks loose.
John – you couldn’t have stated the obvious more eloquently if you tried. The reality of the matter is painfully simple. The conclusion is drawn by those lucky enough to maintain unfettered possession of their minds. Belief in God is akin to brainwashing. I defy the “God fearing” masses of this world to approach the subject objectively. Why else would the church burn scientists at the stake, annihilate non christian civilizations, sit on plundered riches beyond imagination, point fingers at the “Godless” sinners while covering up horrendous atrocities,and twist truth to fit God’s will.
My ass! The most brilliant pyramid scheme in history. I pity the fools who bought into it. I can’t even bring myself to argue the point with close minded thinkers. I don’t give a rat’s ass what any person cares to believe. Knock yourself out. – but don’t you dare pass holier than thou judgement on my reasonable conclusion.
It isn’t even fun to argue the point, and I for one don’t feel the need to justify my conclusion. I like my brother’s solution to bible thumpers who kept knocking on his door. He’s a trapper (yes politically inccorect and loving it) – one Saturday morning too many they disturbed him as he was skinning a Marmot, opening the door, Marmot in hand they asked what it was – my cat, he answered – they never bothered him again.
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Cheers Notes! Yeah, a simple Meme thrown together over a morning cup of coffee went apeshit crazy.
How was the trip? Did the lights dance?
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Ape shit is clearly an understatement. I crapped on the spot! Trip was amazing. The lights only danced for a moment, too many clouds. On the upside – the weather didn’t disappoint. White knuckle roads, heaps of blowing snow, and many, many glasses of wine.
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Wow, we’re really playing on semantics here. Technically both are appropriate, in my opinion, but I’m not interested in arguing over that. How did you come to this conclusion, Prayson asks? Well, I don’t want to put words in your mouth, John, but was it not by the same method that led you to conclude that leprechauns and fairies don’t exist? Specifically, that all three lack any evidence in support of their existence.
Prayson, and many other theists are demonstrating some contorted logic by asking atheists to prove gods don’t exist. However, I don’t have a problem with that. I can do it quite easily. I direct their attention to the lack of evidence, the evidence for human credulity with respect to supernatural claims, the history of gods and religion, and finally, every scientific discovery that the human race has ever made. Why do I add the scientific discoveries? Because every last one of them, without exception, has demonstrated that gods are not necessary. Every time they point to an unknown, we eventually make it known, and gods are nowhere to be found.
By examining the god claim from this angle, I see more than enough “evidence” to denounce it.
My two cents. Peace be with you.
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It’s a game i see employed all the time, R.L…. When actually confronted with proving their god the apologist whips its around and demands the non-believer prove the negative. It really does demonstrate the weakness of their beliefs and is, in fact, evidence of the fallacy in by itself.
Haven’t seen a post from you for a while. Still cutting away at the book idea?
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I completely agree. It’s a curious position to take, but then again, do expect anything different from them?
Yes, I’m still chipping away at the book. While I was doing some research for my next section I discovered some mistakes in “Cultural Diffusion”. I started re-writing that, and clarifying some points that caused confusion, which has delayed the release of everything else. I always intended to go back and expand on previous topics, but there are some points that need to be made in order for the following sections to make any sense.
Not to worry! I should finish something soon… maybe. 🙂
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Cool… as they say, writing is re-writing.
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Dude … check out the dates of origin … am I the only one who didn’t know this?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheism?s=t
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/theism?s=t
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I didn’t know the words were that new, but I know people weren’t called atheists back in the day. I can’t remember exactly what they were called – skeptics perhaps.
I did, however, perform a quick search and found that during Socrates’ trial, they accused him of being atheos…
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Yes along with suggesting that the moon was earth — an early example of taking words too literally.
i was trying to point out that (at least the dictionary suggests) that the popular use of “atheism” emerged before “theism.”
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🙂
I missed that.
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My fault.
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@ Vidasdecristo
“Ark, you can not offer an educated rebuttal to my commentary on the 41st Chapter of Isaiah so you revert to childish name calling and insults.”
Actually, hotshot, I was referring to this verse;
Isaiah 7:14: The (non-prophesied ) Virgin Birth, and when you understand this, it rather pisses on your bonfire somewhat. Ne’er mind, your mate, Geez-Us? still wants you for a sunbeam.
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