Sketches on Atheism

Just how confident are Yahwehists in the Durability of their Religion?

KIDS_LARGEHow confident would Yahwehists feel in the future of their particular religion if all forms of childhood indoctrination were deemed – somehow – illegal?

It’s possible.  The wording of anti-predatory child protection laws already identifies negative religious conditioning in all but name. Physical, psychological, and intellectual abuse are all singled out in the U.S.’s 1974 Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment Act (CAPTA), Australia’s Children and Young Persons (Care and Protection) Act, and the UK’s 1989 Children Act, to name just three. Broader still, the central articles of the U.N.’s 1989 Convention on the Rights of the Child – the right to survival, the right to develop to the fullest, and protection from harmful influences – could clearly be used as grounds for such a move. This would mean no more tacitly proselytised Muslims or baptised-without-consent Christians. No forced First Holy Communions, no Bar Mitzvah’s, no Adhan prayers, no Aqeeqah, no Ceremony of the Sacred Thread, no Chudakarana,and no circumcision. There would be no religious coaching, no predation through organisations like the Good News Clubs and the Child Evangelism Fellowship, and no Sunday school… all of it replaced – perhaps, if at all – with comparative religion studies in the last year of school.

Making the case would not be at all difficult. Consider the massive, long-term intellectual abuse wrought by anti-science Creationist nonsense. Think of the enormous psychological torment sown in children who’re told from the youngest possible age that they’re fundamentally flawed. Fathom the terror seeded in a child’s fragile mind when fed nothing but the perverted threats of Hell; a place of eternal pain, constructed, so they’re told, specifically for them by their own loving god just in case they don’t love him back quite enough, or in the right ways. Think on the horrors felt by a child led to believe they’re being stalked day and night by a vicious hobgoblin. Reflect on the generations ruined by sexual abuse and church sanctioned child rape. Think on the very horrors of convincing a child that some vile extraterrestrial alien force will one day, perhaps today, lay waste to the entire planet, incinerating everything they’ve known and loved. Consider the far, far too many Margaret Schlosser’s, 10 months old, whose mother, Dena, cut off her arms while listening to church hymns as “an offering” to god before the apocalypse, or the many, many Faith Lovemore’s, 6 weeks old, who was butchered by her mother, Julia, by having pages of the bible shoved down her throat because her mother wanted her to ‘absorb’ the books message of love. Let the auditor tally the one-hundred and seventy-two (known) cases of Christian parents in the US murdering their children by denying them healthcare in just the last 20 years, and the thousands of children who have been tortured (sometimes to death) at the hands of their Christian parents using Michael and Debi Pearl’s Christian parenting manual, “To Train Up a Child,” which identifies discipline techniques such as, Inflicting punishment until a child is without breath to complain, Using plastic plumbing tubing to beat children, and Training children with pain before they even disobey in order to teach total obedience. And let this survey of all things monstrous score the Christian Dominionists who insist children should be stoned to death in public squares should they break Religious laws laid out by illiterates who couldn’t understand clouds, let alone thunder.

Certainly, making the case against Christianity is not at all difficult, but sadly, Muslim children fair even worse, and Jewish and Hindu children are by no means immune to this wholesale evil.

BLONE_LARGEWould, however, outlawing religious indoctrination of children be discrimination? Of course it would, in exactly the same way enlightened societies presently discriminate against alcohol, tobacco, firearms, and pornography when it comes to minors. Given it is therefore possible, even reasonable, if not necessary, would Yahwehists feel their religion could survive in any coherent form past even a single generation if their stock of fresh, unguarded, hopeless, naïve, questionless meat was cut off? Could any Yahwehist chapter survive past a single generation if the decision of whether to choose a religion or not, and which one, was reserved until after a child had reached an age in-line with a countries voting/drinking laws wherefrom they could make an informed decision on their own? How confident would theists be for the longevity of their particular religion if joining that religion was left to young adults to review the tangled nonsense produced by Christian (and other religious) philosophers and make a decision based on evidence and rational appraisal, rather than indoctrination and fear based on superstition and magic?

Indeed, given the strength of the case that can be made for such a ban, is this even something Yahwehists would do willingly for the general good of children everywhere? Would any theist feel confident enough in the solidness and rigidity of their faith to trust mature, educated people to review that faith with a critical, honest, adult eye? If the theists answer to this question is No, then they have already more than answered the title question.


204 thoughts on “Just how confident are Yahwehists in the Durability of their Religion?

  1. I can already sense a chill to the very bone of every theists that comes across this notion. The belief that “God is in control” would simply fall apart once this type of indoctrination ceased. The sense of something spiritual would still exists within the human condition but the rigorous and insane codes that institutional religion has created and embellished over the centuries would disappear.

    That being said though, there would always be the cults that would perpetuate these myths and thus never truly die. The mentally broken would always be preyed upon by such sociopaths.


    • I think they’d be terrified if the stream of innocence was severed. And I completely agree that a spiritual impetus would remain, but thinking about it, i’d hazard to say that if indoctrination (particularly into the Yahwehist faiths) was curtailed then we’d see a drastic shift in people moving to the eastern mystic traditions. The concept of karma is not anti-social, it worships no god, and places full responsibility on the individual, and that is never a bad thing… not to mention a greater sense of environmental awareness.


      • John,

        Gongratulations for another thought provoking post.

        I agree that the eastern philosophies, particularly Buddhism, offer a much better guide for living one’s life, spiritual, and otherwise.

        I think Middle Eastern religious brainwashing is already unlawful, ( illegal ) because all the gawd-awful religions spawned in the Middle East go against the laws of nature – the laws of physics and reason, that is.

        Much of he brain washing imposed upon innocent children for religious purposes is abuse of the most vile sort. We should be teaching them the basics, such as reading, writing, math, science, history, comparative religion, etc and let them make up their own mind when choosing a philosophy by which to live their life.

        Alas, we humans are all subjected to this sort of propaganda simply because we cannot choose the culture into which we are born, and it would probably make little difference if we could because all cultures do the same sort of brainwashing.

        The thing to do is to change culture, worldwide – – – good luck with that ! ! ( Thank you for doing your part with this blog. )

        One would think it obvious that something, perhaps lots of things, should change, but, alas, some of us are born into cultures that teach young men to drive airplanes into buildings while others are born into cultures that teach young men how to take a spaceship ride on a round trip to the moon, not to mention teaching others to develop vaccines to prevent deadly deceases, etc.

        I know, I KNOW, the ancient Arab culture was once on the leading edge of intellectual thought, and developed contributions in math, science, etc but they don’t seem to win many Nobel prizes these days.

        More that enough said.

        Keep up the good work.


      • “We should be teaching them the basics, such as reading, writing, math, science, history, comparative religion, etc and let them make up their own mind when choosing a philosophy by which to live their life.”

        Agreed. We should also be teaching them emotional intelligence. And while some cultures may be teaching young men (and women) to take a spaceship ride around the moon, they’ve also built enough bombs to annihilated every inhabitant on the planet many times over.

        I highly recommend “The Neuroscience of Emotions”.


      • Cheers my friend. Cultures are changing all around the world, but we’ve grown so impatient we want everything yesterday. I’m no different, I wish we were rid of superstition (and already reaching out into space colonisation), but that’s going to take a while. Some form of Oogity Boogity will always be manifest, it’s a human bias, a hardwired cognitive clusterfuck… for now.

        Are you getting ready for the Camelopardalid meteor shower on the 24th?

        Hey, i just saw you also do bonsais. Not sure how I missed that, but excellent work. Are the two on the right maples? I have a few going here, the oldest being about 15 years. I left some beauties back in Australia, including an 80 year old (now over 90!) fig; my pride and joy.


  2. The problem with banning religious indoctrination is it would impose censorship on private domestic lives and cut children off from the deep cultural mores, practices and traditions of their parents, extended family and community. Religiously motivated child abuse should be prosecuted for what it is – child abuse.


      • To be honest, why would you bother? Everyone’s entitled to their views, and to teach their kids their views. Good thought experiment because I agree – many people indoctrinated into religion as kids would probably find it risible if they were introduced to it as adults. But as an actual thing to do? Legislating that parents have to refrain from passing on their values and beliefs to their own children is pretty totalitarian. Religion is a poor analogue with violent media/pornography, because it’s way more complex.


      • It’s true, a bigot can teach their children bigotry. They have that right, but pity the poor kid when they touch the real world and have serious troubles finding their footing. But yes, it is a thought exercise, and I’d still love to hear the arguments presented in a courtroom.


    • I think the point John is making is that the “deep cultural mores, practices and traditions of their parents, extended family and community” that tend to come from religious indoctrination also has the adverse affect of inhibiting independent growth and for many children embedding a sense of low self esteem. But you make a valuable point about how the bonds that connect family are part of the culture they create over time, being surreal or not.


      • All civilizations grew up around religion and the greatest mass murders in human history where committed by atheists.

        The evidence is conclusive:

        Religion good. Atheism bad.


      • May the Great and Powerful Veles continue to bless your path, SOM 🙂

        “My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.”
        -Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922


      • Mass murdering Adolf Hitler said he was a Christian.

        And the atheist believes him.

        The atheist believing that everything happened all by itself will believe anything.

        You need to read Adolf’s Mein Kampf where he wrote that the bigger the lie, the better.

        John, lying is what atheists do. It’s their gift.


      • “Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.” -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

        “We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.” -Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933

        “Christianity could not content itself with building up its own altar; it was absolutely forced to undertake the destruction of the heathen altars. Only from this fanatical intolerance could its apodictic faith take form; this intolerance is, in fact, its absolute presupposition.” -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf



      • John,

        Jesus said the entire Bible could be boiled down to: Love God and love your neighbor.

        By comparing the author of Christianity with the words of a mass murderer, the thinking person can discern that the mass murderer is indeed a liar.

        Apparently atheists think that genocide is loving your neighbor and that believing lies is the way to wisdom.


    • You start by banning circumcision, which is simply barbaric tribal abuse.
      A case was brought to The Hague last year but was rejected, oddly enough there were rumblings of antisemitism and the Germans didn’t want that, for obvious reasons. But it is a start.


    • Tell that to these murdered children:

      Faith Lovemore, 6 weeks old
      Scott Wesley Buchholtz-Sanchez, 3 weeks old
      Norell Harris, aged 1
      Zyana Harris, aged 2
      Hana Williams, 13 years old
      Lydia Schatz, aged 7
      Antonio Lopez, aged 9
      Erik Lopez, aged 2
      Margaret Schlosser, 10 months old
      Joshua Keith Laney, aged 8
      Luke Allen Laney, aged 6
      Samantha Mae Martin, aged 6
      Noah Yates, aged 7
      John Yates, aged 5
      Paul Yates, aged 3
      Luke Yates, aged 2
      Mary Yates, 6 months
      Nicholas Lemak, aged 7
      Emily Lemak, aged 6
      Thomas Lemak, aged 3
      Kouaeai Hang, aged 11
      Samson Hang, aged 9
      Nali Hang, aged 8
      Tang Lung Hang, aged 7
      Aee Hang, aged 6
      Tung Hang, aged 5
      Justin Thomas Riggs, aged 5
      Shelby Alexis Riggs, aged 2
      Christina Gindorf, 23 months old
      Jason Gindorf, 3 months old


      • John,

        Do you think Joe Stalin and comrade Mao kept a nice neat list of the 100,000,000 innocent people they slaughtered?

        Maybe you’d like to show us all what a list with the names of 100,000,000 slaughtered people looks like.


      • @SOM
        Other than Sabio, There was never a commenter on WordPress for whom the title Dickhead more aptly fit.
        Truly , you are an effin arsehole of the nth degree.


      • Lol…what a plonker you truly are.
        I sense if it were not for the (dubious ) entertainment value your arse would have been shredded by John a long tome ago and you would be peeing in the wind like “friend Sabio.”


      • Ark,

        The reason you are being abusive is because you’re an atheist.

        You can’t address the issue, so like all atheists you resort to bullying.

        And when bullies take power, they become mass murderers and oppressors.

        John’s hero and authority on Christianity, Adolf Hitler was a piker compared to the atheists.


      • Ah..but you have a filthy habit of not sticking to the topic of the post. And there is nothing worse than the abuse suffered by children at the hands of someone like you. Although we can thanks the gods that you are unable to produce offspring, I take it, which ( in your case) is why you are unable to show empathy for them.
        This is where the true bullying lies.
        But being indoctrinated as well as a dickhead you are
        unable to understand this. Maybe I should feel sorry for you?
        What do you think SOM?


      • Lol….
        Understanding, and compassion for children must be just one of your many shortcomings.

        Were you abused by a Priest at Sunday school, SOM?


      • @silenceofmind. I appriciate it, that you find only love from the Bible, but you do realize, that this not at all the case for all other Christians? Do you realize that when some other Christian finds reason and justification for violence from the Bible, and acts in good faith to do murder, no gods ever appear to stop them, or to set them right?

        Stalin and Mao were in no way informed in their descisions of murder by their atheism. Do you realize this? Throughout history Christians like pope Innocent III and Hitler have been informed by their religious beliefs to murder people. Do you realize this?

        Fear of a retribution by a god is the worst and least ethical reason not to murder. Do you realize this? What happens, when a person who has been taught, that only reason not to murder is the retribution by an imaginary entity (be it Allah, Yahwe, Zeus, Jesus, Shiva, or what ever), realizes that no such entity actually exitst? When that person understands that there is no evidence, that such an entity even exits? That is whence the Stalins and Maos of this world come from. Whose fault is their lack of ethics?


  3. Excellent points here. Given the high deference religion is given, however, it would be damn difficult to get the indoctrination of children into it by their parents to stop. See, god, unlike Batman, is real. So therefor, even though it would clearly be crazy and abusive, and illegal, to teach children to worship Batman by driving through the city at night on tricycles dressed as little bats fighting crime; it isn’t crazy to cut off infant boys’ foreskins without anesthetic or to teach little girls they must cover their faces always because they are evil temptresses. These things are handed down to us from real gods. They do not come to us from made up ones like comic book superheroes. See the difference?


    • Positively!

      Given we’re dealing with real gods the policy roll-out would have to be slow, edged in over time, but certainly kicking-off with the outright banning of things like the predatory Good News Club. That organisation is pure evil.


    • ” … the high deference religion is given …”

      Especially by the state. Often the state is a double-edged sword (in the UK a triumvirate) with one edge being secular power, the other the local religious franchise. Mutually supporting and too often mutually dependent.

      Sometimes the state is the enforcement arm of the religion but religion most often the ‘legitimacy’ for/of the state. It would be interesting to see them split apart (divorced), by law, and forced to survive as best they can on their own resources. But it’s not gonna happen so long as those (orgasmic?) little girls in the photos above can’t challenge the addictive drugs they’re being fed.


  4. Religious indoctrination of children is child abuse, plain and simple. My partner lived in fear as she was told that her grandparents, whom she loved, would burn in Hell because they were the wrong religion.


    • Steve,

      It is the atheist left that indoctrinates children.

      When I was a public school teacher, I was trained to indoctrinate children in such myths and hoaxes of global warming and social activism.

      Religion teaches those virtues necessary for civilization to take place.

      So it is no surprise that since the atheist believes that everything happened all by itself, he would also think that civilization also happens all by itself.


      • @silenceofmind. Do you not realize, that civilizations happen through human agency? What is so difficult for you in that simple fact? We are sentient beings able to organize into civilizations, are we not?

        But answer the question. Do you think your brand of religion would stand whithout child indoctrination? Would you be ready to let adult people decide wether the faith is reasonable enough to be embraced?


      • kyy,

        Civilization doesn’t happen all by itself.

        It’s like being an athlete. Everyone has the capacity for it, but most people just don’t put in the work.

        Civilization is like that. It only comes about under certain conditions. Religion is one of those conditions.

        Since atheists demand the outlawing of religion, it is no surprise that atheist regimes have been the most violent, murderous and uncivilized.


      • @silenceofmind, who said civilizations happen all by themselves? Civilizations happen by human agency. They appear and evolve. Hopefully their social morals also evolves. This happens usually by the civilizations aquiring more actual information about the reality and relying less on their former beliefs in the supernatural. Like for example that lightning is not the expression of a wrath of a supernatural entity, but rather a random natural event. Right?

        You actually have no way of knowing wether religion is a prime requisite of a civilization to emerge, but even if it was (as we do know that all primitive civilizations have had this or that sort of religion embedded in their culture), it tells us nothing of the truth value of this or that religion, does it? Nor does it tell us anything of the requirement for religious thinking to uphold a civilization. Now, does it?

        I fully admit that there have been some authoritarian atheist regimes, that have been violent and murderous, but obviously you have no clue to what are you comparing them to? Do you mean to say, that for example the Soviet Union in which free education and free healthcare were awailable to all was “uncivilized”, or that it was more murderous and worse place to live in for the general public, than any Christian country in the medieval era Europe? That is pure nonsense. You do realize, that the majority of people in Cuba are more likely to have healthcare than in any other Latin American country? Who exactly are you calling uncivilized?

        You do realize, that nobody here is demanding religion to be ouright outlawed. Do you not? Alcohol is not outlawed though we consider it might be harmfull and we as societies have agreed on different standard ages for a person to choose to use it. Why could this not apply to religions? Could they not stand the test, if they were only chosen by adults able to do some critical evaluation of the truth claims of these “ideologies”? Answer the question.


  5. A point here is that parents are mostly too busy to school their own children; they leave it to professionals (jack-booted clerics, to borrow verbiage from our right-wing). And just as we have taught young children that sexual abuse is wrong, if we teach young children that religious indoctrination is wrong they at least will have the ability to think for themselves.


  6. Even if indoctrination were somehow made to be banned and illegal this would still not stop parents from continually doing it. They would first need to be convinced that they are actually indoctrinating their children, as for know, they believe that they are doing the best possible thing for their child. If we honestly believed that there was a all powerful ‘God’ who supposedly loves us and forgives, but will crush us with his heel (now I know where curb stomping was invented) if we do not love him and submit to his will, then why wouldn’t we want to teach our children these things while they are young and before the ‘devil’ gets them. This does not mean that it is right. I continually get frustrated by the indoctrination of children in my christian community it is everywhere. At the same time I think that society/ies should then also look into the indoctrination of such things as capitalism, food, sex etc. etc. These things can be just as harmful as others on the psyche of children.

    Great thoughts and a great conversation starter.

    PS Have you ever seen Jesus Camp? I almost throw up! What a load.


    • . If we honestly believed that there was a all powerful ‘God’ who supposedly loves us and forgives, but will crush us with his heel (now I know where curb stomping was invented) […]

      Curbstomping for Jesus! I feel all holy just thinking about it – watch out infidels.


    • I’ve heard of it, but never seen it. Not sure if i could stomach watching, but i think the photo’s might be screenshots from the film (?).

      I can appreciate pious parents wanting to indoctrinate their kids; they *think* they’re doing the right thing because they honestly fear the punishment they *think* is coming. Bringing them on-board would be difficult, although the irrational, fear-ridden parents themselves are the perfect case study for why precisely we (society) should protect *their* kids… or else they’ll simply grow up as irrational, fear-ridden adults. If they want to choose that life after 18 or 21, then fine, go for it.


  7. I was getting ready to object, but you won me over. The only thing we’d need to clarify is if the gods of all these religions recognise an age of consent for heathens.


  8. John, you certainly know how to poke a hornets nest. Wonderful!

    For better and for worse, I think that it is a parent’s duty to raise their children as best as they can, which is going to be highly biased. To interfere with that using the “law” is social surgery without an independent surgeon general to decide on which parts to leave or remove.

    Removing Christianity from the cradle – and thus Christianity as a whole – is just another form of indoctrination: thou shalt not believe the people you admire most. Trust Uncle Sam instead.

    I’m afraid, your job isn’t done so easily and you’ll have to slay the Yahwehists one by one. But hey, the missionaries managed although they did cheat here and there.


  9. Seems to me since they’re all crazy whack jobs that they’d just be indignant and push harder. You gotta have some serious buy-in already to even have indoctrination. I do t think you can shake that kind of brainwash.


  10. John, this is a fantastic post, for lack of a better word. I haven’t read all the comments, but I agree with Steve, in that many if not most parents leave the indoctrination to the ‘professionals’. This was the case with me and my siblings. My parents used the church as babysitters. They hardly attended church, but dropped us off every Sunday, and we also had to attend Sunday school and CCD classes. You wrote:

    “Think on the horrors felt by a child led to believe they’re being stalked day and night by a vicious hobgoblin.”

    Spot on. 1 Peter 5:8 states: “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour.”

    As someone who experienced intense night terrors as a child due to religious indoctrination of satan, demons and eternal torment in hell, I can attest to the harm religion does to children. We haves studies showing that the most religious people have atrophied hippocampus due to stress hormones being induced. But not only that, children’s brains are generally in a theta/alpha suggestive brain wave state. This is to increase the survival rate — where they will be more apt to listen to their primary caregivers and teachers. But this brain wave state also causes them to have a greater, more vivid imagination. So a teaching that might not be so fearful for an adult can be very fear inducing for children.

    And here is a disgusting lesson, by a Baptist preacher, being taught to young children. Why are they not being arrested for child abuse? That is, of course, a rhetorical question. We know why. For those with ADD — just skip down to the section The Curse”


    • Atrophied hippocampus… You see, that’s we love you, Victoria! Who else can fit atrophied hippocampus into a sentence? 🙂

      “Can you imagine how scary it must be to be attacked by a bear? Can you imagine how much the long claws and the sharp teeth must hurt when they sink into your arm or leg? Can you imagine how the parents felt when their kids didn’t come home?…. But this really happened! There was a road or a field in Bethel littered with little arms and legs and dead bodies. 42 kids killed for not respecting God’s Word.”

      Yep, that right there is a monster masquerading as a holy man.


  11. Just one hour before reading this I had a woman and child at my door, inviting me to a “free public event” about A World Government. I knew it was a religious pitch, but was taken aback that the spiel came from the child, not the adult. My ready-made response to threshold proselytizers was much too abrupt to give to a child of about seven years, so I politely listened instead. Now I am not only offended by the evangelizing, I am disgusted by the use of children to make it difficult to reject.


  12. Hah! Haven’t read it through yet but my first response was a wishful snort: “Dream on~!”

    Can you imagine even suggesting such a thing in Congress, Parliament, the Knesset and/or whatever Islamics have … without being torn from limb to limb? Brrrrr …


  13. Speaking of “To Train Up a Child”

    Excerpts from the book:

    John, this book is shocking. I’ve been reading a blog on WP for about a year now, and I’m stunned at what I’ve learned about fundamental Christian homeschooling and how popular the Pearl book is and how common this “parenting” behavior is, even though we have meta studies showing the negative impact on children and society.


    • It’s sick. I was looking into the deaths which have come directly from that book, like Christians, Kevin and Elizabeth Schatz, who beat their adoptive 7 year old child, Lydia, to death for mispronouncing a biblical word, and hospitalising her 11-year-old sister, Zariah, with injuries so bad she was on life-support for weeks. These children were tortured for hours, every day, all according to the Pearl’s manual.


  14. Whups. I read just enough to think that this is a track I really don’t want to go down. I had a quick look at the article about the Irish catholic priest who blackmailed a seven-year-old boy into sex “Do this to me and I can get your dear old dead Granddad out of Purgatory and into Heaven” and realised there’s enough research in the topic for a few hundred million lifetimes. I already know enough and really don’t have that long …

    Religious authority? Nothing other than a very powerful and convenient tool for achieving one’s own ends … at all levels.


    • Agreed, agreed, and agreed. Yes, but I know, moving in such a way sounds like overreach, it probably is, but isn’t it really no different from protecting kids from alcohol, porn and tobacco? Where’s the difference? Because the family is also a part of the club? That doesn’t sound like a very good reason to me… not enough to permit the abuse which does occur.


  15. Hello John;

    Such an enlightening post, muy clever blogger friend…

    I particularly enjoyed the part when you made reference to the fact of “making the case against Christianity “, highlighting the case of Muslim children and those “harmful” effects on Jewish and Hindu kids

    Thanks for sharing, happy weekend ahead,
    Aquileana 😛


      • John,

        What the hey!

        Comrade Stalin said that 1 death is a tragedy, a million deaths are a statistic.

        What’s a 100,000,000 slaughtered innocents more or less, among comrade atheists?


      • Yes, John. We mustn’t speak of the atheist mass murders because they are retarded.

        Hopefully you won’t be listing out any more murders and blaming them on Jesus.


      • @silenceofmind, what part of Stalin and Mao not being informed in their murders by their atheism did you not understand? It is not that hard to get. Is it?

        The number of people killed by authoritarian governments is reflected by the amount of their subjects and methods of murder, but if we put the crusades into context (let us only say the crusades against other Christians) we are talking at least equal amount of people in comparrison to the contemporary populations.

        However, you can hardly claim, that the crusaders and the popes who sanctioned those were not informed by their religious beliefs in justifying murder.

        The US government has killed terrible amounts of people most of which have been civillians in dozens of wars in by carpet bombing, agent orange, white phosphor, and even the a-bomb a blink of an eye, but does that make the US as a nation, or their main religious affiliations evil? Were Roosevelt, Nixon, or Bush informed by their religion to kill people on the other face of the planet? Not that I know of. They had other better and more ethical reasons. Did they not?

        Stalin and Mao may have had less ethical reasons, but atheism was not one of their motives. Not like Christianity and theistic believes were a motivator to Hitler and his nazies. You see, even if Hitler was the grand lier and was not a religious man as he professed to be (and this you would need to demonstrate, as it is a very extraordinary claim and requires for the rest of us to find it plausible, more than your gut feeling), his propaganda affected German religious types (both protestant and catholic) who were all too happy to set out on a rampage of violence and murder as they believed it was sanctioned by Hitler and your god. Did your god interfere to set his mistaken adherents acting in good faith right? No, your god did not.

        Does the fact that the US governments are responsible for more people being killed than the Aztecs or the inquisition make the US government more evil? Or is the amount of murders only reflecting the capacity of these political entities? More than their intent?

        Just answer the damn question. Nobody is here asking for religions to be outlawed, but only that people could evaluate and choose their religious beliefs at the same age when we consider them mature enough to buy alcohol or cast a vote. Do you honestly think your religion could stand a chance if it was not taught to people in their voulnerable childhood?


    • Noobs

      Adolf Hitler: Boom Baby! Look at my kill count! 17 Mill.

      Joseph Stalin: 23 Million! UMad Hitler?

      Mao Zedong: [Ladies] Please. Between 49-78 million. I lost track after the first 30 million.

      God: You guys are so cute.


  16. No believer could kill a human being except when attacked persistently and aggressively in self-defense; killing is always the doing of non-believers ( some sort of Atheists).


    • @Paar

      Oh, so you going the domestic violence justification route are we? If she’d just stop bitching, I wouldn’t have to hit her so much?

      You may now go step barefoot on as much lego as possible.

      The people who commit violence are always, always, responsible for it.


      • I don’t understand what you have written.
        Please explain in detail in a passage or two.
        Others are also encouraged to elaborate.

        Thanks and regards


  17. “their stock of fresh, unguarded, hopeless, naïve, questionless meat”

    Whenever I hear the phrase, ‘children should be seen, not heard’, this sums up how I felt. Forget religion and indoctrination. Knowing that my mind was nothing in face of adults made me irate, and one of the things that pushed me towards intellectual past times as a youngster. I’ll prove I have something to say.

    At the moment, I’m feeling that the phrase came about somewhere in the middle of a church sermon.


    • Great point, the larger implications of how we treat kids in general is vital in any broader discussion. Met a kid just yesterday, Pollyanna, couldn’t be more than 7, but she blew my mind about how aware she was regarding the plight of homeless dogs. If only adults had half her awareness, and compassion, this world would be a very different place indeed.


      • Aw, sounds like a sweet kid :3 Prime example of when there are times to listen to children and when to think they’re just cute, or a little of both XD


  18. @RAUTAKYY : May 18, 2014 at 4:21 pm

    “I fully admit that there have been some authoritarian atheist regimes, that have been violent and murderous, but obviously you have no clue to what are you comparing them to?”

    In the murdering spree; the Atheists are far ahead than all the religions put together. I think they would outnumber in murdering humans than all religions put together since the history began recording it;though the Atheists did not rule much in human history.

    One could guess what they would do if they get power to rule in the present times with the modern technology of lethal, chemical and nuclear arsenal.



    • Paar, a Muslim gathered hoards of followers and trained several to fly planes into buildings, killing approximately 3,000 in 2001 an leaving many more traumatized. A very Christian president of the U.S. said that god told him to go to war — that “this crusade, this war on terrorism, was going to take a while.” The U.S. leadership called for the killing of thousands in the name of their god.

      You ‘godly guys’ have never been able to get along. You are not religions of peace. You have never, ever learned to behave. And what’s even worse — you indoctrinate our children, the future of our species. Your indoctrination causes a deactivation of neural circuitry to the frontal lobes which leaves you unable to see the harm your belief system causes.


    • Paarsurrey,

      This site references at least 15 million casualties directly attributed to the “religion of peace” during the past century:

      “Jihad destroyed a Christian Middle East and a Christian North Africa. Soon it was the fate of the Persian Zoroastrian and the Hindu to be the victims of jihad. The history of political Islam is the destruction of Christianity in the Middle East, Egypt, Turkey and North Africa. Half of Christianity was lost. Before Islam, North Africa was the southern part of Europe (part of the Roman Empire). Around 60 million Christians were slaughtered during the jihadic conquest. Half of the glorious Hindu civilization was annihilated and 80 million Hindus killed. The first Western Buddhists were the Greeks descended from Alexander the Great’s army in what is now Afghanistan. Jihad destroyed all of Buddhism along the silk route. About 10 million Buddhists died. The conquest of Buddhism is the practical result of pacifism. Zoroastrianism was eliminated from Persia. The Jews became permanent dhimmis throughout Islam. In Africa over 120 million Christians and animists have died over the last 1400 years of jihad. Approximately 270 million nonbelievers died over the last 1400 years for the glory of political Islam. These are the Tears of Jihad which are not taught in any school.”


  19. *Would any theist feel confident enough in the solidness and rigidity of their faith to trust mature, educated people to review that faith with a critical, honest, adult eye?*

    I dare say they’d answer yes, but then be confounded by the outcome. There are still that small percentage of scientific folk that do believe, or believe in belief even if they don’t buy it themselves. Maybe we’d be confounded.

    While I fully agree that indoctrination meets the criteria for child abuse, I think that would be hard to legislate. We do so many things to our children that is abusive on some level simply because we are human. Indoctrination is tricky because unless every opinion statement comes with a disclaimer, aren’t we indoctrinating?

    My husband and I want our children to make decisions for themselves, but it is impossible to raise a child without them picking up on your thoughts, biases, and prejudices. I like the idea of banning indoctrination, I’m just not sure how practical it is. It is one thing to ban it in the public forum, but in homes? I’m not sure I’d want to live in a society that has power over what I say to my children. The slope would be too slippery.

    Then again, the world has many laws about how we treat our children physically. Spanking laws and such, which I can fully get behind. How can we not aim to protect their psychological health as well?

    If you can’t tell, I’m confounded on this subject already. :/


    • “I dare say they’d answer yes, but then be confounded by the outcome.”

      Brilliantly put!

      “I like the idea of banning indoctrination, I’m just not sure how practical it is.”

      I agree, its not at all practical. There are too many gray areas to even be contemplated in any meaningful way, and the consequences of such a “ban” would/could open doors that should not be opened. This was more a thought exercise; a different tact in assessing just how confident certain theists truly are about their beliefs. Do they honestly think these dreams can stand on their own merit without first being concreted into place before a child has the capacity to ask questions?


      • **Do they honestly think these dreams can stand on their own merit without first being concreted into place before a child has the capacity to ask questions?**

        The answer to that is a resounding no. While I wouldn’t put it past us humans to come up with new outlandish beliefs, the old ones would fall away in a single generation. As it goes…


  20. John,

    Thanks for the comment regarding the bonsai; I’ll pass it along to my wife who does bonsai as a form of meditation. We have a variety of trees, including a bonsai “forest” of redwoods containing six trees from three to five feet tall.

    Yes, the trees you asked about are maples.


  21. Regarding the meteor shower . . . Yes, we plan to go out to lake casitas where the seeing is much better than here in town with all the light pollution. Even with the poor viewing conditions here at home, we have been enjoying the show put on during the past several weeks by Mars, Saturn, and Jupiter – right here in our own back yard.


  22. “Enormous psychological torment” does not derive from believing in the creation story found in the scriptures.How absurd.

    Nor is “the right to survival, the right to develop to the fullest, and protection from harmful influences” anything but the life journey of the belief in God. Flourishing and self-protection become the sum total of living the life of Christlike attributes.

    The godless, (ex. Elliott Rodger, currently) leads to narcissistic, hedonistic living generating a bitter form of envy, jealousy, and the imagining of being persecuted. These are not attributes gained through Christ; they come from the emptiness of ungrounded living. They arrive by placing self as God. This is the story of the most current mass murderer Elliott Rodger, without the healing experience of true faith. clearly, Godless living encourages such a self-destructive focus such a self-focus.


    • From my view, Godless living leaves a hole that is too frequently filled with self-destruction, not the absence of harmful influences. Look at the path of Elliott Rodger.


    • @Robin

      Flourishing and self-protection become the sum total of living the life of Christlike attributes.

      You missed believing in fatuous bullshite.

      The godless, (ex. Elliott Rodger, currently) […]

      You really are about to use the murder of seven people to try and prove your point about how fucking amazing belief in magic is?


      they come from the emptiness of ungrounded living.

      Pray-tell good sir if this is the case, then why is the rate of social malaise higher in religious red states than in less delusional blue states? Almost every social indicator is *worse* in places where religiosity is more prevalent.

      You are making stuff up.

      Godless living encourages such a self-destructive focus such a self-focus.

      Thinking women are beholden to men, a concept reinforced in the bible, was a large part of the problem. His feelings of entitlement amplified his misogynistic impulses leading to the tragedy that unfolded.

      One of the main replicators of corrosive patriarchal thought in US society is organized religion. So saying that if he was just a touch more pious this wouldn’t have happened, seems a bit beyond the pale


  23. The abuse of Elliot Rodger was not at the hand of Christian living, God loving parents, but initially through the divorce of his parents who turned to a life of hedonistic relationships, ignoring the essential needs of their children.


  24. This piece made me chuckle. I know it’s not a humor essay, but I found myself laughing anyway. It poses a fair but at the same time very obvious (one might say rhetorical) question that exposes just how weak religious doctrine is if you don’t start below a certain age. The reason I laughed is because I feel it will eventually be but one generation that dispenses with religion, in the not too distant future hopefully.
    At the same time I feel a bit uneasy laughing, because this article also shows just how vicious religion can be when it comes to indoctrinating its children and how much it has done so in the past (and no doubt will try to do in the future)


  25. Profound Mythology when applied to the Mormon Church. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the fastest growing Christian church in the world. Most members live outside the bounds of the U.S.. Most are adult converts. Take a little time, a little time to think things over.


      • @Robin

        we already know the results of that,

        Civilization, modernity, progress.

        The theocracy you are pining for is currently available in Iran and Afghanistan an and in many countries in Africa. Under the gentle tutelage of god they are doing so amazingly well.

        If theocracy isn’t your endgame, then perhaps you should thank the secular state that allows your particular flavour of delusion to flourish along with the others based on the idea that you keep your bullshite out of state’s business – they have to deal with reality and grown up issues – and you can fap with reckless abandon to the magic-man of your choice in private as much as you’d like.

        Everyone wins.


      • Although LDS (Mormons) believe Joseph Smith was a prophet and wrote the Book of Mormon from revelation, they in no way compare to Iran, Afghanistan and many countries in Africa. Two different Gods, different messages and different goals.

        I will admit the LDS Book of Mormon has some contradictions to the Holy Bible but they do believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and the Savior and Redeemer of the world.

        I also think the general idea of John’s post is flawed from the first sentence. Notice the words “if” and “somehow”, simply wishful thinking of a God denier. Teaching children about God, Jesus, and the Good News is not bad, after all, don’t we all grow up and ultimately decide for ourselves. I mean, some of you, no doubt, were taught about Jesus as children, denied it as truth after growing up, and you guys turned out great, right?

        Let us all hope the balance does not tip from a world with more good-doers than a world with more evil-doers. We need more Countries and people to fight the oppressors of freedom, equality of women and children, and fair and just civil rights for all, not fighting against loving parents who teach their children about Jesus.


      • “I mean, some of you, no doubt, were taught about Jesus as children, denied it as truth after growing up, and you guys turned out great, right?”

        Bobbie, there’s more to teaching children about “Jesus loves me this I know, for the bible tells me so” songs in Sunday school. You seem to forget about sugarcoated genocide, as in Noah’s Ark. As a child, I was haunted by this. How could a loving god do such a thing. Let’s not forget teaching children about eternal hell and torment. Child abuse at its finest.

        Most parents let other people indoctrinate their children, i.e., Sunday school, church, CCD classes, etc. Parents put way to much trust in people who will play a major role in wiring their children’s brains at a very young, impressionable age. I had night terrors from age 4 until around 10 because of indoctrination about hell and the thought that a father figure would drown the entire planet and it’s inhabitants except for 8 people and what animals ‘he’ could fit on the ark.

        Children’s brains are generally in a theta/alpha brainwave state and that’s when the imagination is the most lively, vivid. Have you taught your children about hell and genocide by a ‘loving’ god?


      • Noah’s Ark? You clearly do not know the reason why God flooded the Earth.

        So, was it Catholics that “indoctrinated” you then? I was forced to attend CCD classes as a child. My brothers and I wanted to stay home and watch cartoons on Saturday but mother was persistent. I’ve told her the greatest thing she did for me was to make me learn about God since He saved my life at least 3 times I know of so far. I am no longer Catholic though.

        If it is true about you having night terrors as a child then it is true it ended around age 10, you grew up, rejected God, and turned out just great.

        Yes, I taught my children about Jesus, Hell and genocide by a ‘loving’ God. None had night terrors, yet they had a million questions. The youngest is now nineteen. Two claim to be Agnostic, and the other five are Christians. One is gay and thinks God made him that way. I love them all very much. They are all adults and now can thoughtfully search for their answers and make up their own minds.


      • “Noah’s Ark? You clearly do not know the reason why God flooded the Earth.”

        Sigh. Let me hear your unintelligent answer to that Bobbie. Let me tell you that your god was so dumb about the brain (he supposedly created) and what causes anti-social behavior (which ‘he’ was solely responsible for causing) that when I read comments like that I really do get concerned about the future of our species.


      • LOL! I’ll do better next time, I promise. Please don’t send me to hell…please, oh, please my loving benevolent editor. If you do, that means I’ll have to hang out with SOM, Robin, Bobbie and Paar. Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!


      • I don’t think you really want a Bible lesson about the Flood Victoria.

        Living in the USA is nice, isn’t it. You have a freedom a lot of others do not. Who paid for that freedom? I’ll tell you. Men and women who valued your freedom enough to risk, and sometimes give, their lives.

        You have a freedom to believe whatever you choose to believe, all bought and paid for through the blood and sweat of other people, now and in times past. I have the same right. Our Country was founded on that principle, freedom from tyranny and oppression. May God forgive us our trespasses and protect us from evil.


      • “If you don’t stick to your values when they’re being tested, they’re not values: they’re hobbies.” Jon Stewart


      • The narrator of the above video at 6:35 states:

        “The truth is that no physicist, no matter how religious, ever needs God to balance any equation. Perhaps this is telling us something.”

        It tells us the narrator has a problem with rational thought. How might a physicist discern that God may be balancing an equation, when God uniquely did it? What level of astonishment, what kind of Eureka Moment would need to take place for it to be God doing it?

        As for needing God to balance an equation, how about for starters:

        1. What of dark matter? Dark energy is thought to be the enigmatic force that is pulling the cosmos apart at ever-increasing speeds, and is used by astronomers to explain the universe’s accelerated expansion.

        This elusive force has yet to be directly detected, but dark energy is thought to make up roughly 73 percent of the universe. How is it that the astrophysicists knows that dark matter contains 23% of the mass of the universe yet they can’t write the equations necessary to know if it’s hot or cold? How might God be seen in providing the answer?

        Dark energy and dark matter combine to occupy approximately 96 percent of the universe, with regular matter making up the remaining 5 percent. But, researchers have been puzzled to find that more than half of this regular matter is missing. How can the best of us be so stupid, yet deny a greater organizing intelligence? Perhaps this is telling us something…..we are so stupid and arrogant.


      • You muzzle God. No way is GOD permitted by you for him to balance the equations conceding dark matter and dark energy that man presently cannot balance. Your conclusion is fallacious because your premise is irrational. Innumerable equations formed by man concerning the cosmos remain out of balance.


  26. Bob Jr Remarks: “Teaching children about God, Jesus, and the Good News is not bad, after all, don’t we all grow up and ultimately decide for ourselves. I mean, some of you, no doubt, were taught about Jesus as children, denied it as truth after growing up, and you guys turned out great, right?”

    Exactly. In support.

    The following is not meant generally, but rather specifically.
    When I transitioned through adolescence, I transitioned out of scapegoating. I had Protestant parents who taught me to move foreword constructively. I mean, if so many of you have become ex-God, where have you landed? Blaming Christians and all other religions for the troubles in the world doesn’t sound like much of a landing. I have created my world using diversity and find an exceedingly better world understanding the complexity of my challenges.

    It’s so easy to build a blog in anonymity with a vested interest in post-modern deconstruction and societal anarchy. There is no shortage of cowering anarchists flowing thru the internet on their way to no redeeming value to America. Personally, do you really want to feed into that?


    • “I mean, if so many of you have become ex-God, where have you landed? Blaming Christians and all other religions for the troubles in the world doesn’t sound like much of a landing. I have created my world using diversity and find an exceedingly better world understanding the complexity of my challenges.”

      Robin, I question why any person in their right mind would voluntarily join a religion that systematically makes women inferior to men, starting with Genesis 3:16. A person that buys into the LDS belief that a woman needs a man to get into heaven. This isn’t just about equality (human rights) — this is about the fact that the Abrahamic religions, to name a few, have done enormous harm to at least 1/2 our species, and that doesn’t even include children and homosexuals. There are volumes of psychological and anthropological research to back this up. Having been born with a penis does not make you a better leader. Look around you. The world is male dominated and we’ve seen mostly sorrow, pain, misery, destruction and death because of it. Garbage in, garbage out. Monkey see, monkey do.

      But what is really telling is that once someone does study the bible or other male dominated, authoritarian holy books, they voluntarily choose to join or remain part of the Abrahamic tribe of baboons and chimps, and that says a lot about their character or their self-esteem. There may be a god or gods some where out there but it is not the god you cling to. That is a fictional god. And if it was “the” god, I would never, knowing what I’ve learned about ‘his’ character, bow down and worship such a god. I’d rather burn in hell — the hell ‘he’ created in the very beginning, because in his imperfections, ‘he’ claims to know the beginning from the end. It shows that ‘he’ is the source of imperfection and projection. To believe in such a god is to accept the fact that you are no different than baboons and chimps — worse, actually — because you cannot see what is right in front of your face, though you have the neurological capacity to do so.


    • Neuron Writes:
      Faulty premise fallacy:
      “Robin, I question why any person in their right mind would voluntarily join a religion that systematically makes women inferior to men, starting with Genesis 3:16.”

      If that were the case, why do the LDS with their women enjoy the lowest divorce rates of all Christian denominations? Stop your serial polygamy.

      “A person that buys into the LDS belief that a woman needs a man to get into heaven. This isn’t just about equality (human rights) ”

      Sure it is when a Man needs a Woman to get into “Heaven” also. (Oops)

      Faulty Premise: “Having been born with a penis does not make you a better leader. Look around you.”

      Good one. Agreed. Then look at the “Relief Society,” the largest Christian women’s organization in the world. It’s Mormon and within the organization of the church and completely run by women.

      Faulty premise fallacy: “The world is male dominated and we’ve seen mostly sorrow, pain, misery, destruction and death because of it. ”

      You’ve got it wrong. Devil Bunnies are alien (neither male or female) and control the planet.


      • “Dear children of Abraham or those who emulate the faith of Abraham; I’m not saying that there wasn’t a creator. I just can’t believe a mind that could or would make this universe would share exactly the same insecurities, the same need for respect and recognition, the same demand for loyalty, submission and obedience and the same murderous rage of the worst of human kings and your average alpha male chimpanzee.”

        ~Phil Hellenes


      • I hadn’t. That’s an odd one. Was he just atomically ignorant and didn’t actually know who Adolf was (possible, as it is Alabama), or did he consciously do it, as Adolf was a rabid protestant and president of the Luther Fan Club?

        “the organization maintains “six school buses and a magnificent facility of its own where hundreds of boys and girls are brought from around 20 different rough and tough locations throughout Opelika and Auburn” to be taught Bible lessons.”



      • Ron, he apparently didn’t look at the link I posted from a Psychological/Clinical journal about how to specifically counsel Mormon women who are guilted into remaining married even when they are unhappy and know that it’s the main reason for their depression and other psychological problems. Not to mention the hundreds of online articles and testimonies from Mormon and ex-Mormon women describing their unhappiness as a Mormon wife.


      • From the Salt Lake Tribune dated 9/19/13:

        “The U.S. Census released a mountain of data Thursday that serves as a snapshot of America in 2012. Utahns again stand out as a “peculiar people,” a biblical phrase for followers of God that Mormons sometimes use with pride to suggest their practices make them different in good ways.

        The annual American Community Survey shows Utah again has the nation’s biggest families, most households headed by married couples, youngest ages at first marriage, highest birth rates and most families where at least one parent stays home with young children. The new data also includes statistics that seem to fly in the face of conventional wisdom. That includes one of the nation’s highest divorce rates, a high wage gap between men and women…]”

        Ron, it looks like Robin is a troll. He doesn’t know chit about the Mormon religion and he’s talking out of his holy anus regarding the stability of Mormon families.


  27. Early indoctrination to a dogma is important for capturing young minds, but this has to be coupled with isolation. One of the great results of the Internet is exposure to people of different belief systems, which causes one to reconsider the primacy of one’s own, which the Millennials seem to be doing by rejecting religious indoctrination.

    This doesn’t mean that they aren’t just replacing one dogma with another, or some mishmash of dogmas that work for them, but a questioning attitude is a start, no? 🙂


    • Hell yeah! Read a few weeks ago evangelicals are losing 260,000 kids every year, and from what i understand Mormonism is in a desperate panic as young people are fleeing the cult in droves… all due to the net.


  28. Interesting thought, as usual. I’m not sure it would be as easy to implement as one might think, however. We can’t even get “God” off of our money, or out of the pledge of allegiance. I can’t imagine the backlash that a proposal such as this would receive from the Christian-right in my country…


  29. I remember when the Lord’s Prayer was banned in school. I couldn’t have been older than 7 or 8 – old enough to know that starting the school day with forced recital of allegiance to God was cruel and unusual punishment.


  30. You are advocating state totalitarianism to stamp out religions which you object to. The Romans, the Nazis, and the Communists all tried it. The State soon becomes a much bigger problem for once you give it that much power it eventually will turn on you. I would love to be around at the end of your little experiment in French Revolutionary tactics. Your heads will be in the basket.

    You are fortunate to have the Constitution to protect you from yourselves.


    • I don’t object to religions, rather I’m appalled at the indoctrination and deceptions that are required to keep religions (particularly the Abrahamic faiths) alive. They cannot stand on their own, they rely on “faith,” not evidence, and this faith creates unnecessary (unjustified) noise in the human theater; perverting conversations and cobbling our species ability to address the real problems of the world, and ourselves.

      Funny, though, that you mention your seemingly worthless Constitution. It seems your High Court has just sanctioned religious tyranny; empowering employers to force their beliefs on employees. Isn’t this precisely why many of your original settlers fled Europe?

      Regardless, rationalism will win out over childish, naive superstition, so this post is only a thought-exercise; a challenge to theists to confront the fundamental weakness of their faith… a belief system that cannot survive unless the elders of that faith can successfully corrupt innocent minds before they’re allowed to question the validity of the information they are being fed.

      Would you, Allan, be at all confident that Christianity could survive two generations if it were only first presented to individuals aged twenty-one years old, or older, and who had the chance to challenge the story, and compare it against known facts?


      • John,

        Actually I would be confident. I admit it would take a big hit, but you will never wipe it out. Many people come to God late in life. Saul hated Christians more than you do. Later he became Paul who was easily the greatest leader of the early Christian Church.

        I would rather go back to the question of government banning the indoctrination of children by religion. Do you realize the amount of government action required for that to occur? People do not surrender their children easily. Would you?

        If someone told you that you were forbidden to pass down your traditions and beliefs to your children, would you not fight it? You might say that you would if they were religious beliefs and traditions. I say any beliefs and traditions.


    • Point being: I’m not sanctioning any government to act this way. Granted, I say action is possible under current child protection laws, and detail that we already do discriminate against alcohol, tobacco, firearms, and pornography when it comes to minors, but the final appeal is to Yahwehists to act by their own accord for the myriad of reasons cited. If we are collectively appalled at the thought of feeding children alcohol and violent images, and pass laws to this effect, why then should we not also protect children from the intellectual and emotional abuses of religion? If we do not consider children mature enough to vote for their own government, how on earth can we consider them mature enough to choose their own religion?

      Now, we have a perfect example unravelling presently in your home country. Your High Court has ruled in favour of religious tyranny. Business owners are today free to impose their religious beliefs on employees, who are afforded no protection. Fortunately, secular child labour laws will protect minors from being exposed to this State-sanctioned religious fascism, but what if this ruling is expanded to include paediatrician medical clinics or day care centres? At what point does the government then have to step in?

      When you have the chance, read this short post (linked below) on the Good News Club, and ask yourself: shouldn’t children be protected from such intellectual and emotional predators?


      • John,

        Your perception of Christians, Jews, and Muslims is not their self perception. To say you will appeal to their sense of protection of their children to get them to not pass down their beliefs is frankly irrational on your part. In their minds they are protecting their children.

        I disagree with your description of the Hobby Lobby case. ObamaCare imposed the government’s values on a private business, As those of us who follow this stuff, knew would happen, that law was not just about giving everyone health care. It was about having a vehicle to impose what ever the current group controlling Washington wants to burden their fellow citizens with. As far as the company in question, employees are free to pay for what ever they choose to believe in. Nothing has been imposed on them. They were not asked to pay for anything they oppose.


  31. Have you watched the documentary Jesus Camp? It’s on netflix. I had to turn it off after 15 minutes. I was literally frightened to my core. She kept referring to the Taliban and that they start brainwashing their kids young so….


  32. Well for me this whole conversation scared the hell out of me. You know that fight or flight thing in the brain NecroNotes is always babbling on about. But once I relaxed I realized, if I’m right and God is up there then he’s a big boy. he can take care of himself. As for my children, we actually interact with them and ask them what they think. I want them to make up their own minds. Unless it’s cleaning their rooms. I don’t give a damn about their free thoughts on that!


  33. I wasn’t talking about you. I was talking about some OTHER former Christian turned Atheist trying to explain everything with common sense and science, NakedNeurologist.


    • Come over here and let me slap you. Yeah, I learned a few “skills” while I was a Christian. 😛

      Btw, in case you didn’t know it:

      “The name Hayden English origin from the valley of hay. Hay valley from the Old English heg meaning hay and denu meaning valley. Originates from the Germanic Heidano, meaning heathen.”

      Oh the irony. 😈 I knew there was a reason why I liked you.


  34. I was always told Hayden was ancient Gaelic for “Son of the rose hedged valley.” Kinda gay… I’m going with Heathen. Yeah.


  35. Why do you always apologize for Judaism? It’s the very root of Christianity and Islam. You should strike it the hardest. If you wish to cut down a tree you do not waste time on the branches, you cut the trunk.


    • Hi Joanna. Am I apologising for Judaism? I did a whole series on what Rabbis actually believe, and what they believe (or don’t believe) ruins the foundations of both Christianity and Islam. Did you read those articles?


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